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The absolute worst take on the death of Navy SEAL Ryan Owens, courtesy of Reddit’s MGTOWs

Carryn Owens at Trump’s Joint Session address last week

The most memorable moment in #SecondPlacePresident Trump’s speech to Congress last week came when he spoke directly to the widow of slain Navy SEAL Ryan Owens.

Some saw Trump’s tribute to Owens as supremely presidential, others saw it as a “crassly manipulative” ploy to absolve himself from blame for the bungled raid that led to Owens’ death. Some thought he had truly honored the visibly grief-wracked Carryn Owens; others thought he had cynically exploited her for his own political self-aggrandizement.

The regulars in Reddit’s Men Going Their Own Way subreddit have a rather different take on the whole thing.

As they see it, the real issue is that Carryn Owens is an “attention seeking whore [who] most probably cheated on the poor guy like almost all military wives do.”

In a post with several dozen upvotes, the Reddit MGTOW who calls himself No-M3rcy tears into Carryn Owens for her imagined infidelity and alleged attention-seeking.

Ryan fought and died in Yemen while the woman comes on camera and gets all the attention. She becomes a “national hero” and this becomes one of the “best political moments in U.S. history” for doing nothing but crying on camera. Women sure do know how to put up an act. Give it some time and you’ll see her pop up like many military widows on interviews and other things. So much for private grief and respecting your husband.

Trump is the one who turned the whole thing into a political spectacle; Carryn committed no crime other than having feelings in public. How showing her obviously genuine grief is supposed to be disrespectful of her husband I have no idea.

After the Trump speech, everyone forgets about the poor guy and she gets all the media attention for days. The guy is disposable just like all of us and the woman is always the victim. He served his role and now no one gives a shit about him.

Really? Because when I do a Google News search of his name I get this:

This story is not going away, and until we get to the bottom of why the raid failed it shouldn’t.

But the saddest thing is that this attention seeking whore most probably cheated on the poor guy like almost all military wives do. And there he is fighting for her freedom and providing for her. It’s disgraceful how male vets get treated and cheated on.

There is of course zero evidence that she cheated on him; this is just straight up misogyny.

Sometimes they even get Booed when they come back home.

Yeah, that did happen sometimes — during the Vietnam war.  Well, there was one case 5 years ago in which a gay soldier was booed at a Republican debate, though he was booed for being gay, not for being a soldier.

And worst of all, even though she is a post-wall hag (her husband was mid 30’s so she’s probably the same/younger), some Beta simp will probably step in to “save her” from her misery and marry her regardless of the fact that she is a rapidly aging single mother full of wrinkles.

Only a MGTOW could look at a conventionally attractive and not-actually-old-at-all woman insensate with grief and think “yeah, I bet she’s got wrinkles, what a hag, she should die alone!”

Given their bizarre fixation on the alleged “rapid aging” of women and the evils of showing any signs at all of age, I can only wonder what’s going to happen when all these MGTOWs start getting wrinkles themselves.

I hate to tell you this, MGTOW dudes, but men age too, and they don’t all age like fine wine.

She will forget all about her husband and latch onto the new Beta.

Most widows and widowers do move on, which may or may not involve dating or marrying someone else, but they never forget the partner they lost.

What a Gynocentric society we live in. Women will just use you as a resource. Even if you are dead, they will still use you for attention.

Trump is the person who turned everyone’s attention to her; he’s the only one using anyone here.

I think that if she really cared about him she would have stayed home and grieved in private and not use him for sympathy points.

Well, it’s good that no one but your fellow MGTOW losers gives a shit what you think.

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AsAboveSoBelow, Male Gaze Harvester
AsAboveSoBelow, Male Gaze Harvester
5 years ago

I’m not going to forget that Ryan Owens died honorably, even if the mission was ordered by a posturing asshole. Trump deserves everyone’s derision; Ryan and Carryn Owens do not.

Yes, this. Thank you.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

’m not going to forget that Ryan Owens died honorably,

How so? He died in the process of killing civilians during a war of imperialist aggression. Where’s the honour?

JS
JS
5 years ago

Maybe there was a reason Obama didn’t sign off on the raid before leaving office. Perhaps he didn’t think it was a good idea, and figured the next POTUS would just let it die in the planning stages.

Not everything that’s been planned, has to be done, etc. etc.

Preparing for Orangacare in 3…2..1.. *sigh*

Also replacing radiator in car.

PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
5 years ago

We’re going to have to disagree on this, Dalillama. I am not going to metaphorically spit on the man because he is dead, just as I would not spit on the returning vets from Vietnam, as stupid and as futile as I think both of those events were.

Dalillama: Irate Social Engineer

@Peevee

We had a draft during Vietnam. Everybody in today’s military signed on the dotted line their own selves. Also, knee-jerk worship of the military is a characteristic of a particular political side/movement. Do you know what movement I refer to?

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
5 years ago

Oh, how this post made me miss the days when open sewage pipes like these guys were a mostly fringe phenomenon (not because of their beliefs, but because of their inability to maintain a facade of decency). Now, we have a proud leaking sewage pipe as the president of one of the most powerful nations in the world.

Perhaps these trying times finally open up even the most stubborn liberal’s eyes to the fact that fascists should never, ever be trusted with even a modicum of power.

idk, just trying to keep a positive mindset.

PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Noice) Sarcastic
5 years ago

Dalillama, I do not “worship” the military.

The subject of a soldier’s death is one that is extremely up close and personnel to me, so I am respectfully requesting that I not engage in this conversation with you any longer, and hope you will tolerate my feelings on this matter, even if you do not agree with them.

Guest
Guest
5 years ago

@Lea just wanted to thank you for the insight–that explains a lot.

Re spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image

Nentuaby
Nentuaby
5 years ago

If a Navy SEAL isn’t an alpha, than who the fuck is? Can I get an example? There’s got to be a lurking MGTOW who can clear this up for me.

I think it’s actually as simple as– any man with a wife is a beta, ipso facto. Betas buy the cow and alphas get the milk for free, as it were.

(This is incompatible with the more aggression-centric alpha/beta definitions other misogynists employ, but that’s exactly what distinguishes the MGTOWs from other manurespherians and makes them the fringe’s fringe.)

Moggie
Moggie
5 years ago

I think trying to figure out how a MGTOW chooses who is alpha is kinda missing the point. These guys don’t have a firm taxonomy, because they don’t have a coherent philosophy. Any given man can be any letter of the Greek alphabet to them, depending only on what serves their argument best at that point in time. In the same way, women can be weak-minded children and rule the world. It’s not a philosophy, it’s a tantrum engine.

Nobody Special
Nobody Special
5 years ago

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee, I don’t think that the idiot meant to imply that Ryan was a Beta, it’s just his poor writing skills that give that impression.
If you look at the first mention of Beta, it says;

And worst of all, even though she is a post-wall hag (her husband was mid 30’s so she’s probably the same/younger), some Beta simp will probably step in to “save her”

and then goes onto say

She will forget all about her husband and latch onto the new Beta.

I think he meant that last sentence to read more like ‘…latch onto the new, albeit Beta male’.
I doubt that any of the MGTOW zoo would dare intentionally suggest Ryan was Beta; too scared of the possibility of being identified by military computer bods and getting a visit from his comrades-in-arms.
Of course, the thought wouldn’t cross the vacuum between his pair of brain cells that Ryan’s colleagues might just not share his view of the grieving widow, and there’s a part of me that relishes the idea of a couple of Seals, preferably women, turning up at No-M3rcy’s front (basement) door to give him a lesson in respect.

In the meantime, may the fleas of a thousand camels infrst his armpits, and the crabs of a thousand beaches* torment his genitals.

* Yes, I’m aware that they’re a different sort of crab to pubic lice, but the image amuses me.

PreuxFox
PreuxFox
5 years ago

@Dalillama having respect for a deceased human being is very different from worshipping the military. If you are fortunate enough to have not lost any loved ones to the armed forces then I hope that continues to be the case for you, but you may wish to have a second look at how you approach this kind of conversation because you’re coming across as a grade-A jerk.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
5 years ago

@Dalillama

I’m going to stick my neck out here and state that while the fact that a military is deemed necessary in today’s world is a tragedy, the culture that perpetuates the perception will likely promote more positive notions of the military whilst downplaying its horrors.

Neither of us know Ryan’s motivation for joining, nor his motive for staying. We can’t look inside his mind. But there is a non-zero chance that he was at least in part under the impression, however inaccurate, that his missions would all be for the betterment of people, and not to push some meaningless government objective (or stroke the ego of the mango menace). And people have an unfortunate tendency to cling to the notion that they are doing right whilst standing in

There is, of course, a non-zero chance that this is not the case. You can fill in the blanks for assumptions there. But the fact remains that he died on a mission of no tactical importance that shouldn’t have happened, anyway. Even if we assume the worst about his motives, he’s still a casualty of idiocy, and a sign that there could be more. He certainly didn’t deserve to die.

Ariblester
5 years ago

@Peevee, PreuxFox, Troubelle

It is possible to acknowledge the personal tragedy of the death of those who serve for their families and loved ones, and to simultaneously have a frank and open discussion (and, yes, even condemnation) of said serviceperson’s actions and their ramifications. This is not, in my opinion, a disrespectful thing to say. Indeed, I would find it more disrespectful to pretend that they were blameless and flawless and entirely “honorable” (whatever that means), and that they were instead hard done by the hands of Fate and the powers-that-be.

@Dalillama

That said, I cannot help but feel that there is too much of the latter (condemnation of the deceased’ actions) and not much of the former (sympathy for their family and loved ones) in the discussion thus far.

PreuxFox
PreuxFox
5 years ago

@Ariblester

PeeVee has already requested to bow out of the discussion. You don’t think maybe you can voice your thoughts without trying to drag them back in?

As for the actual content of your post, yes, those kinds of conversations are important and constructive, but directing them at someone who made as iniccuous a statement as PeeVee’s original is about as tasteless as hijacking the microphone at a funeral to make a political point. There are many ways to discuss the issues in and of the capitalist military-industrial complex without using someone’s statement of remembering a particular deceased person as a jumping-off point, as if that person was looking to defend and venerate an entire organization.

Ariblester
5 years ago

Which is not to say that one must be sympathetic to the family of the deceased, and I apologize if that sounded overly prescriptive or demanding.

@PreuxFox

Speaking of being overly prescriptive about what one can say or do…

The point of contention was that the SEAL died “honorably”, which is not as innocuous as an exhortation to respect and acknowledge the SEAL’s death. I am merely making the statement that you can be respectful while disagreeing that the circumstances of the raid were in any way, shape or form “honorable”.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent + Bard of the New Movement
5 years ago

@Ariblester

I did, however briefly, address the possibility that Ryan was in for less-than savory reasons; and then provided a reason that we should be very concerned about this even if that was the case. (And far from the only one….)

Readily I will admit that my intention was to address Dalillama’s antagonism towards the subject, which I believe is in excess for this situation. Is the modern view of the military far too rosy? Of course. But while the soldiers themselves are to be held accountable for their actions, the fact is that they’re being sent off on meaningless gallivants by reckless and senseless assholes; and they’ve been conditioned to obey the orders they are given with minimal questioning. They are still to be held accountable. But while there are no excuses, there are explanations. I find this a reasonable one.

…I feel like this could be linked to the patriarchy by someone more verbose on that particular subject than I.

PreuxFox
PreuxFox
5 years ago

@Ariblester I think perhaps you and I are never going to understand one another on this point, because it seems like you are using a very different definition of the word ‘honorable’. From my position, nothing PeeVee said was a reflection on the raid at all and you are clearly reading something very different from I am into what was said.

If saying a soldier died honorably was supposed to be a reflection on how honorable /the military action they were involved in/ was, then yes, I would understand your point. But I honestly can’t imagine how one would interpret it that way. From my position, the assumption is that any soldier’s death is honorable because (given that we don’t know anything about his personal character) the assumption is that they put their hands in the lives of their superiors and were willing to die for what they felt was the good of their country and their loved ones. Whether or not those superiors were making good decisions at the time of their death does not factor into whether or not that death was honorable.

PreuxFox
PreuxFox
5 years ago

@Troubelle

…I feel like this could be linked to the patriarchy by someone more verbose on that particular subject than I.

One of the ways in which the patriarchy works with capitalism is by instilling men with an outgrown sense of duty to the country at large (protect the supposedly helpless women from supposed foreign threats)…making it much easier to create willing and expendable soldiers out of the lower class. This is especially necessary because capitalism in a large-scale economy like the U.S. basically requires military action to keep from grinding to a halt.

I only mention since you asked and since I was just discussing this with a friend yesterday ;P

and I do have to get back to work now, so I’m not going to weigh in any further re: whether or not it’s a gosh darn jerk way to behave when one goes around picking fights with someone for saying something nice about a deceased person that (I am pretty sure) neither party knows personally.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
5 years ago

I think trying to figure out how a MGTOW chooses who is alpha is kinda missing the point. These guys don’t have a firm taxonomy, because they don’t have a coherent philosophy. Any given man can be any letter of the Greek alphabet to them, depending only on what serves their argument best at that point in time. In the same way, women can be weak-minded children and rule the world. It’s not a philosophy, it’s a tantrum engine.

For me the point of trying to figure out the MGTOW Greek alphabet system is to highlight exactly this. That it’s whatever allows them to hate women and whine about their boner at a particular point in time. I’m never genuinely trying to figure the system. It’s just my way of mocking them and shooting down their evopsych blather 🙂

On the discussion of military deaths and how we talk about them, I’m always conflicted myself so I don’t have much to say. On the one hand, if you go on about honor and ability, you risk glorifying war and legitimizing American imperialism. On the other hand, it’s an asshole move to criticize someone who’s just died like that. It’s also worth noting that many people in the military are working class people from economically depressed areas who don’t have much of a hope of paying for college and/or getting a good steady job with benefits besides in the military. It’s one of the ways capitalism and militarism go hand in hand so much and I’m always reluctant to be too hard on people caught in the machine. I don’t know if this last point applies to Ryan Owens, just more speaking in generalities here.

BOINKBOINKBOINK
BOINKBOINKBOINK
5 years ago

@Dalillama

Part of the enlisted vow is to obey the lawful orders of those appointed over them.

And he was given lawful (if stupid and fruitless) orders by his government. It’s not up to him to decide what orders he wants to follow and those he doesn’t. At worse if he refuses, someone else has to take his spot and risk their life, and then he’s a coward and a sworn legal oathbreaker who violated orders and saved his skin at the risk of someone else’s.

You don’t have to “worship” the military to acknowledge that those in the military are just doing their duty, getting physically and mentally beat to shit and never seeing their families and getting shit benefits from the VA, all so someone like you can sit on your ass and pass moral judgement and disrespect on something you obviously don’t understand while the idiots in DC use them for their own personal agendas.

Get the fuck over yourself. You’re not superior to anyone for not joining the military, any more than someone is superior to you just for enlisting.

Ariblester
5 years ago

@PreuxFox, BOINKBOINKBOINK

Lest we forget, 14 to 25 civilians, including children, were killed in the raid, if not directly at the hand of the deceased SEAL, then at least by the actions of him and his colleagues. No one ordered them to do so, I might add; this was entirely on their shoulders. The SEAL may have gone in operating under the purest and noblest of intentions, but after the first death of an innocent in what was supposed to be a precision strike against a single al-Qaeda leader, he should have known the score.

We, the living, who have the benefit of hindsight, also know the score, and we cannot, must not, allow ourselves to be blinded by devotion and idealism, and to thus automatically equate duty with obedience, and obedience with honor.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
5 years ago

Off topic, but any Mammotheers by chance in the district of Rep Roger Marshall of Kansas?

Because he severely needs a verbal ass whopping from a constituent for this mess

Just, like, homeless people. …I think just morally, spiritually, socially, [some people] just don’t want health care,” he said. “The Medicaid population, which is [on] a free credit card, as a group, do probably the least preventive medicine and taking care of themselves and eating healthy and exercising. And I’m not judging, I’m just saying socially that’s where they are. So there’s a group of people that even with unlimited access to health care are only going to use the emergency room when their arm is chopped off or when their pneumonia is so bad they get brought [into] the ER.

If only homeless people would buy organic groceries and sessions with a personal trainer, maybe they’d be healthy! Logic!

Oh, but he’s not judging or anything.

And to bring it back around to the topic of the blog, I wonder (sarcasm) if the MRM are going to protest this guy. They do have male homelessness as one of their top issues.

RadicalBacon
5 years ago

So, I’m a millennial vet, and I do think that there’s a kind of worship of those who died in service. Heck, it squicks me out when someone, especially someone who I don’t know, thanks me for my service.

Re are SEALs beta? Well, the average special forces guy is a bit shorter than the average man, and tend to be more wiry than muscly. It’s a strength to weight ratio thing. Not exactly a vision of a Chad?

Tahia
Tahia
5 years ago

Nothing to add really, but feel the need to say I am with Dalillama on this.
USian tendency to valour soldiers is weird everywhere else.

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