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a voice for men creepy Dean Esmay men who should not ever be with women ever MRA paul elam

“We’re a group of volunteers dedicated to a cause, and the cause is Paul Elam.” — Dean Esmay of A Voice for Men

ProTip: If you're ever tempted to start a cult, play this video game instead, and leave real people alone.
ProTip: If you’re ever tempted to start a cult, play this video game instead, and leave real people alone.

I sometimes refer to A Voice for Men, the Men’s Rights hate site that has evolved into something of a hate group, as a cult. Up until now I’ve only done so half-seriously; while there are a lot of things about AVFM that are cultish, from the apocalyptic rhetoric to the constant demands for money to the organized harassment of its critics, it seems to lack some of the central elements of a real cult.

I mean, they’re not holed up in a compound in Idaho; they don’t wear funny uniforms; and they don’t talk, at least not publicly, about their single-minded dedication to serving the group’s leader — one Paul Elam of Houston Texas.

Or at least I thought they didn’t.

One of my readers has pointed out to me an interesting moment in a video posted on Youtube last year by a woman — known by her internet handle SworeByThePrecious — who had been talking to AVFM’s Dean Esmay about getting a press pass for AVFM’s conference last year. The video features the uncut audio from a long and contentious 4 AM phone she and Esmay had to discuss the matter. (Ultimately, she didn’t get the press pass; here’s her account of what happened when she caught up with some of  the conferencegoers at a bar afterwards.)

The really interesting bit in the recording — which I somehow missed when I listened to this last year — comes just short of the 23 minute mark, when Esmay pointedly tells Swore that he and other AVFMers are “a group of volunteers dedicated to a cause, and the cause is Paul Elam.” Here’s the audio:

Yep. You heard that correctly. The Number Two dude at AVFM doesn’t say that their cause is Men’s Rights, or fighting the evil “hate group” that is feminism, or any of the other things that Men’s Rights Activists like to say that they’re about. He says, plain as day, that their “cause is Paul Elam.”

If you don’t believe me, you can find the quote in the original video here. (The link should send you directly to that part of the phone call; if not, it’s 22:50 in.)

Now, I’m assuming that this was a Freudian slip on Esmay’s part, but whether it was intentional or not it’s pretty damn revealing, huh?

 

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ryohji
ryohji
6 years ago

@Pandapool: Yes, it was a bit insensitive from me to even remotely link homosexuals to those two lunatics. It’s just that such devotion from Dean toward Paul have so much potential for people really wanting to make an even bigger mockery of AVFM’s two heads (that makes 1/4th of a regular head in total).

PeppaPig
PeppaPig
6 years ago

Hi. I’ve been lurking on this site for a bit.

Maybe this isn’t the most appropriate place to ask, and if not, feel free to let me know, but I was wondering if any of you had advice on getting someone out of the manosphere?

Without going into to much detail, he has recently gone through a nasty divorce and has reacted very badly. He has a legitimate grievance, but has reacted out of proportion. He has latched onto this anti-feminist movement, though I’m not sure which flavor. This is not helping him. I highly suspect it is more responsible for his poor showings in family court than any gender bias is.

Currently, I view him much like I would a badger that’s been tied up in a burlap sack. The badger has a legitimate grievance, but damn if I don’t feel some trepidation in opening that sack.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
6 years ago

@ryohji

Please don’t refer to them as “lunatics” either. There are people here with mental disorders and you using lunatic as a slur is very ableist. Not all “lunatics” are assholes like those two assholes, thank you.

Moggie
Moggie
6 years ago

Lea:

How badly would a person need an authoritarian father figure’s attention and approval to
A) pay him to notice them even if that means living on instant ramen noodles?
B) settle for Paul Elam?

You… you shouldn’t talk about senpai that way!
*runs away crying*

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/378/482/25b.png

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

So last month Elam told us that the cause of AVfM is just talking. Now this month Esmay tells us that the cause of AVfM is Paul Elam. Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen. What will the purpose of AVfM be next month?

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

Oh god, a human spambot that slaps the keyboard until something looking remotely like “edge” falls out.

Careful, we might cut ourselves on all of Tim the Spambot’s edge.

http://www.enasco.com/prod/images/products/23/AC130137l.jpg

“Lol, I’m so offensive! Humor! I’m so funny because people think I’m a gross asshole! Ahyuck!”

*eyeroll*

This is what we get for allowing Family Guy on the air for as long as we have.

Spindrift
Spindrift
6 years ago

Of all the choices for cult leader…to pick Elam? That’s just sad.

If I ever get sucked into a cult of personality, I know who the personality’ll be.
It’ll be my feminist friend Katie. (All hail Katie!)

misseb47
misseb47
6 years ago

I know this is totally irrelevant, but I had rather interesting discussion with my rather narcissistic sister while eating dinner last night. 😀 We (my dad, sister and me) were eating pork. My dad was wondering why certain meats are considered appropriate for eating and others weren’t. He asked why it was acceptable to eat pork and not, for example, horse meat. Her answer was ‘because it is not normal’. I said ‘there is no such thing as normal’ “Because you just out and eat goat. Because it is not normal’. (People actual do go out and eat goat. In fact I went to Greek restaurant on my birthday and had some lovely slow cooked goat. YUM!) . But how is that not not ‘normal’, I asked. she said that It is just not normal for Australians to eat it (notice the goal post shift, there. Also notice how she overlooked how multicultural Australia is. There is no one monolithic Australian culture). I told her that Australians eat kangaroo, crocodile and buffalo meat. She she said, then why don’t you see it any of it in the shops? My dad said that kangaroo meat is sold in the supermarket here. And if crocodile was farmed locally, it would be too.She then asked me why I think there is no such thing as normal. I answered that there is no such thing as normal, because we are all individuals and there are many nationalities, cultures, religions, etc. She then starting going on about there is such thing as normal because there are “normal ranges” and that is how bell curves are calculated. I was like-huh???????????????????. She said because I have studied criminology, I should know about statistics and I should know about “normal ranges”. I said in criminology there is no such thing as “normal ranges”, only the mean, the mode and the median-there are only averages. This is true. In criminology and the humanities, there is no normal range, only averages, levels of variance, percentages and rate per 1000 of the population. This is because it deals with real people and their behavior and their culture, not temperatures, chemicals, atoms. There are standard deviations and normal distributions are sometimes calculated and used in the social sciences (in political polling results, for instance), but this has nothing to do with labeling someone or something as normal or abnormal. Rather it is about margin of error and real-valued random variables And it sure as hell has got nothing to do with what meat is considered acceptable to eat and why. How can cultural food preferences be put in a bell curve anyway? This whole conversation was one of those WTF?!?! moments. I was wondering how many logical fallacies and derailing tactics you can can spot? I have spotted several.>:-(

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It is just annoying when people act like they know more than I do about something they know nothing about. It may seem small, but it happens a lot and not just with her. Everything I say is immediately invalidated and dismissed simply because I say it. It really seems that no matter how educated I am or how good I am at something, I will never be taken seriously and I will always be an object of ridicule. GGGRRRRRR!

th1stle
th1stle
6 years ago

@laughnwitch

Bawhahaw! AVFM, et al. attacked the comment section of the Ed the Sock video, crying, “You’re WRONG, stupid sock puppet!”

Do you think they ever leave their houses for reasons besides going to Men’s Rights Conferences, MRM meetups, posting anti-feminist propaganda around University campuses, and stalking Anita Sarkeesian’s tax mailing address? With all the time they spend writing in every comment section of every video, article, and blog that says something negative about them, me-thinks, no.

Spindrift
Spindrift
6 years ago

@missedb47

If it makes you feel any better, people eat horse meat where I live.
You’re right that it’s just a cultural thing, not a matter or normals/abnormals. Pity they refuse to take you seriously, that’s not cool of them.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
6 years ago

@misseb47

Tell your sister that several million Americans think eating kangaroo is weird. Like, it’s so weird that while we have kangaroo jerky in (very few) stores, it’s still cut with beef and is given more as a novelty gift than an actual snack. (At least in the area of NorCal where I live.)

I’d would say the same with buffalo and crocodile, but we have those meats in the USA, too, although they aren’t very common in some places. (For instance, someone growing up in Louisiana may consider eating crocodile/alligator normal since they do farm them down there, but may consider someone from Montania eating buffalo weird and vice versa.)

Oh, oh! Tell your sister about Rocky Mountain oysters! They sell them at some baseball games in Colorado.

Do you what they are? Castrated bull testicales fried.

(It’s also the ultimate form of misandry.)

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

Hugs, misseb47. Narcissistic parents suck. My mother was similar. Any position which was counter to her instincts was immediately wrong, any position which went along with her instincts was right, and no amount of reasoning could shift the one to the other.

I remember trying to explain to her how gay people were not all victims of child abuse. After about two hours she said, “well, I’ve heard all your arguments and you’ve knocked down all of mine. Let me go away and think of another reason why I’m right.”

Grrr. If you’re not going to come to the table willing to change your position if it’s shown to be wrong, why even bother coming at all? That’s just intellectually dishonest as well as annoying.

(In my mother’s case at least, it was because she wasn’t listening at all. She was just sitting there going “look how smart my son is, with his facts and his logic, look how well I’ve raised him” and ignoring what I was actually saying. So yes. Hugs of solidarity.)

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

*narcissistic peeps.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I’ve actually had rocky mountain oysters before. It wasn’t that bad. A little stringy, but they mostly just tasted like hush puppies.

misseb47
misseb47
6 years ago

Spindrift-Thanx! 🙁 I think she is just jealous at how much I have achieved academically. It was quite a shock to her that I finished school even though I hated it. She quit school in year 10 and only came back when I was starting my final year. She started university and quit during the first year. She then went back when I was completing my second. See the pattern? She stopped calling me ‘retard’ round about when I was writing my masters. See? She’s jealous. 😀

katz
katz
6 years ago

If you fry anything thoroughly enough, it tastes like hush puppies.

(To the best of my knowledge, Rocky Mountain oysters are still a “novelty” food; lots of tourists and people make a point of trying them, or at least talk about trying them, when they’re in the area, but I’ve never known anyone who habitually ate them just because they liked them.)

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
6 years ago

@katz

All I know is that they sell Rocky Mountain oysters at some stadium(s) in Colorado, so I assume they’re popular enough to at least warrant some people buying them to eat more than once, like Crackerjacks or peanuts or whatever they sell at baseball games.

But I’m guessing you’re from Colorado (because IDK I don’t remember shit from things) so I’ll just step back and let you talk.

katz
katz
6 years ago

I’m not from Colorado, I’ve only been through there. Never been to a ball game there, so who knows, maybe people really do eat them like peanuts.

misseb47
misseb47
6 years ago

Sindrift-Thanx! 🙁 I think she is just jealous at how much I have achieved academically. It was quite a shock to her that I finished school even though I hated it. She quit school in year 10 and only came back when I was starting my final year. She started university and quit during the first year. She then went back when I was completing my second. See the pattern? She stopped calling me ‘re***d’ round about when I was writing my masters. See? She’s jealous. 😀

(there is going to be a double post, it was an ableist word and was sent to moderation)

Pandapool-

Tell your sister that several million Americans think eating kangaroo is weird. Like, it’s so weird that while we have kangaroo jerky in (very few) stores, it’s still cut with beef and is given more as a novelty gift than an actual snack. (At least in the area of NorCal where I live.)

I’d would say the same with buffalo and crocodile, but we have those meats in the USA, too, although they aren’t very common in some places. (For instance, someone growing up in Louisiana may consider eating crocodile/alligator normal since they do farm them down there, but may consider someone from Montania eating buffalo weird and vice versa.)

Exactly. What is considered normal food largely depends on what is local to that region and what can be farmed and grown locally. Crocodile meat can not be seen anywhere in Melbourne, because crocodiles do not live here and cannot be farmed here, it is too cold for them. However, up north that is a different story. Hence crocodile meat being much more common. I do think it is strange that emus are farmed in America, though. =P

Oh, oh! Tell your sister about Rocky Mountain oysters! They sell them at some baseball games in Colorado.

Do you what they are? Castrated bull testicales fried.

(It’s also the ultimate form of misandry.)

LOL! I will!! Now she would REALLY call that abnormal. That’s another thing I found offensive about the conversation, she considered it abnormal because it is different. Just because a food is not eaten in one culture does not mean the food and the people that do eat it should be considered abnormal. There is no monolithic culture and she does not have the right to decide what food is and isn’t normal.

EJ (The Other One)-Thanx dude!! 🙁

I remember trying to explain to her how gay people were not all victims of child abuse. After about two hours she said, “well, I’ve heard all your arguments and you’ve knocked down all of mine. Let me go away and think of another reason why I’m right.

Total facepalmness! It is impossible to have a debate or a discussion with narcissist because no matter how wrong they are, they are always right! I learned that the hard way, myself. GGGRRRR! Have a hug! *HUG*

misseb47
misseb47
6 years ago

EJ (The Other One)-My comment to you was “Thanx dude!! <3 Narcissistic parents and siblings do suck. 🙁 "
Sorry for the Block Quote Mammoth! ^^;

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
6 years ago

@katz

I did a quick google search and one) they’re also in Nevada and many other states (which makes sense because Rocky Mountains), two) they’re popular enough to have several recipes for them online for home cooking, three) they don’t sell well and are sold as more novelty food at Coors Field and four) there’s at least two festivals around eating them.

One is in Virgina City.

http://www.visitvirginiacitynv.com/events/major-special-events/73.html

The second is called Testy Fest, while Rocky Mountain Oysters aren’t the main thing, they’re still a big part of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testicle_Festival

Both have been going on for at least a couple of decades.

So IDK.

katz
katz
6 years ago

Montana is where I saw them. Whereby I mean “saw them for sale,” because seriously, no.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I had them in Idaho when I was visiting a friend’s family’s ranch. They had spare cow bit lying about so they fried some up for us. I doubt they were an every day kind of food.

makingfitzcarraldo
makingfitzcarraldo
6 years ago

Mainstream supermarkets in Florida sell alligator meat. I have known many who eat squirrel, though I’ve never seen it in stores. I recall that horse meat was sold for public consumption, only passed off as something else? There was outrage in the UK. Horses have been used as dog food in the USA. (I’m vegan myself.) Dogs are food in some cultures. I’m sorry your sister treats you that way. I find it so frustrating myself to be told to be nice or that I’m hysterical. So basically have no opinions or say anything? a man says something derogatory and then tells others I said them…. Because I didn’t kiss his ass and go “ohhh but

makingfitzcarraldo
makingfitzcarraldo
6 years ago

My phone messed up my comment. Not jumping in to kiss butt when others make low self esteem comments (fake fishing for compliments bullshit) is my recurring nightmare of “you just aren’t nice enough women exist to stroke egos”. If I jump in with knowledge they brush over me. Seriously, I read comics and they don’t but I have to listen to this over and over?

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