Open Thread for Non-Personal Stuff. No Trolls, No MRAs.

RE: Fibinachi

Aw, but that might mean Tea For Two would have to stop sulking, and then they can’t be the center of attention anymore!

Seriously, well-said. I’m a writer, but I WISH I could express myself as well as you.

Wait. I apologize. That was NOT your first (“fucking”) comment – it was your third.

The first two were actually recieved with both friendly demeanour and polite feedback. As they should, they were well written and interesting.

Lex-man even tried to continue having a conversation with you about harassment and the stuff that happens in different communities, but you decided to grab your ball and go on with it to play a different game.

Look, Lea just asked you to be respectful of sex workers and you tagged that as “An uproar” and a backlash.

Here:
Said Lea:

Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from. Someone writing about a character who does sex work is not necessarily bent on writing tropes. Please show some respect and consideration for their points of view. There are sex workers who read and comment here.

Uproar?
Backlash?

Said Katz:

I’m not really getting where the “all women in movies are prostitutes” idea is coming from. I was trying to think of the last time I’d seen a sex worker in any medium and I came up with Slave Girl from Saga and I guess Lulu from Slings and Arrows, although she’s a meta character and maybe doesn’t count. Not a particularly predominant occupation from a casual survey. Certainly the vast majority of media I’ve read and watched don’t contain any sex workers at all.

And, importantly, both the ones I mentioned are broken birds; I can really only name a couple of characters from any source that are sex workers who don’t have tragic backstories.

said Tea for Two:

I didn’t expect the backlash for my earlier opinion. Last thing I wanted to do was cause any uproar in here. I didn’t honestly expect the reaction I got for pointing out the dangers to women (or anyone) in the sex industry. I didn’t think it was news to anyone, either. I do think it’s damaging to promote the opposite, that it’s problem free or not dangerous, including emotionally speaking. That’s my opinion. As katz pointed out, we *were* all asked for ours.

Uproar? Backlash? Reaction?

Literally the only one of that I could find (have I gone blind?) was Lea – who, just, well, said: You know, we have people here who are sex workers and what you said can be construed to be pretty disrespectful to them. Maybe not do that, yeah?

Said Tea for Two:

But I feel like my comment was stuffed with straw. I didn’t say most of the things that I’m being directly or indirectly quoted as saying. I didn’t say *all* women in movies were prostitutes. I didn’t say anything bad about sex workers, either; so I wasn’t “condescending” or “patronising” or “disrespectful” in any way shape or form, that I can see. I’m not the first one to be concerned about the risks in the sex trade or of glamorizing it.

The only two persons who respended directly to you was Lea – Katz just clarified her book not being a movie. That’s certainly “quoted as saying” and “Stuffed full of straw”. That… one person responding.

Your reponse though, to that? Those two responses?

I’m really surprised that people don’t notice how often women characters that garner attention or Oscars are some form of sex worker. Well, there are male ones, too. I could post links from google but since you can all find the same pages if you wanted to, I won’t. I don’t want this to derail the entire topic here, anyway. Last thing I expected here were arguments, to be frank. But then I tend to idealize these things that promise safe haven or safe spaces.

But then part of a safe space is also being able to express oneself honestly – but without criticism and backlash. I got part of that at least.

Holy smoly martyr guacamole Batman! Why can’t you all see, you could all find, entire topic derail, last thing I expected was arguments, I tend to idealize promises of safe havens, honest expression…. no criticism… no backlash…

Woah.

Sorry, all that from: “Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from.”

Really?

Very detailed study of sex workers in film, which is interesting – although I don’t see what the point was, and then you were already back to

And I don’t mind if people disagree with me. That wasn’t the point. And I’m a bit bugged that that’s all you got out of my detailed reply. Once again my points are ignored. That’s fine but why make it a point to do so? All you got out of my response which I took time to compile was “there was no uproar here,” and minimizing how I felt.

Which is just mind-boggling.

Look:

Anyway the finger wagging continues. I might as well be on reddit. I never said anything bad about sex workers but, to deny there are risks or costs that go with it, to me is denying reality. To purposely write a character that is sanitized is to me irresponsible.

But you did.

I would like to say something about the “ideas for a movie about a sex worker” in the topic. Can I just say it really bothers me? Haven’t there been enough movies about female prostitutes already? Is there any role a woman can play besides that? How about a movie about the johns, for instance? As for the trope of a happy hooker that’s been done too – see: “The Happy Hooker,” from the 1970s. As for a failed actress becoming a sex worker – see “Girl Six” by Spike Lee. It’s all been done before!

And the idea that a prostitute shouldn’t have any hint of emotional damage from the work, duress, being trafficked or pimped, is just so damaging in my opinion. There are people trying to rescue sex workers and trafficked people, and this just puts a nice PR spin on it that there is no such thing as an unhappy sex worker. I’m cringing.

And people reacted to that.

I didn’t say that all sex workers are damaged. I do think it carries emotional damage with it, including social stigma, distance from family or loved ones, difficulty finding a supportive partner, and then the vulnerability of dealing with strangers with one’s body in that type of intimate way.

“And the idea that a prostitute shouldn’t have any hint of emotional damage from the […]”

“I didn’t say all sex workers are damaged”.

Yes. That’s what that sentence means. You did, ipso fucking facto, say that. Perhaps without meaning to, but you have, so there it is, so here I am, at 5 in the morning because I can’t sleep, going through it.

Once again – I never said anything bad about sex workers. I was trying to promote an idea of a rounded portrayal IF the role were done but also a frustrated plea that there are so many such characters already. And I was talking about film. I don’t know about the same status on book portrayals so I am not talking about katz’ work.

I’m really aghast that you would say “you may not like sex work” – I posted no opinion on it one way or the other. And then you go on to assume I”m going to treat someone badly because of this IMAGINARY bad opinion.

Really guys? This might as well be an MRA forum?

I didn’t mistreat katz either, btw. katz asked for our opinions. Unlike what has been given back – I made a criticism of past portrayals of women on film. NOT of sex workers or sex work. NOT of katz themselves.

No, what you got back was responses to your sometimes problematic phrasing. That was it. Responses that you then decided were an “uproar” and a “backlash” and a “argument”.

And people even apologized for getting you somewhat wrong and for being harsh! Katz and kittehserf both did that! What is going on here?

And pretending that calling this an MRA forum, that we give backlash, that there is an uproar, that this is not a properly safe space, that we are being mean, that this is a clique, that people are mis-representing you or ignoring you is somehow not making personal attacks is just odd too, because it clearly is, you just eschewed the second person pronoun and skipped straight to the minor personal insults.

I mean, goddamn – Katz was nice to a fault. And yet:

Excuse me? You posted another lecture about me personally and then simultaneously expressed surprise why I’m saying that I feel I’m being personally attacked. Cognitive dissonance??

I thought I gave a full and reasoned reply to your posts to me. What I got back just now was solely about me as a person. And how I shouldn’t feel how I’m feeling.

I don’t know how you all normally talk to each other, but what I saw was me being lectured to and then people began laughing and talking about cats and knitting.

Except I didn’t – I answered your question. I got a finger wagged in my face by Lea, when I was saying nothing of the type.

Since you have asked me again for me to answer your original question, and then have said that instead of answering it to begin with I turned it “into a soapbox about the movie industry” (I apologized for not realizing, as I’ve said, for some reason, that it wasn’t a film but a book – guess that apology is already forgotten) and as for a “long dissection” etc., that’s just another pot shot at me. Yeah my posts became long but I’m trying to respond to things in specific so a good amount of that are quotes.

I also feel a bit ganged up on, here. I am surprised this is your post after I had thought you understood I was talking about the art and so forth.

But yeah, since you mention it – when someone says something like “sorry if you don’t like sex work” and then tells me “not to mistreat them” because of that – they ARE putting words in my mouth.

This is “extremely gentle” to you? I’ve been completely dismissed. The actual points have been ignored or twisted to some other thing. You want to talk about a soapbox? Try the very first response to me and those afterward. Simply because someone disagrees with my thought that a HINT of the downside should be included (and I was talking about IN THE WRITING, since that was your question), I’ve been made out as some sort of prude who looks down on sex workers, which isn’t at all the truth. I try to defend myself and get more of the same.

Seriously?

Fucking seriously?

You want to talk about a saopbox?

I quote Lea again:

Not all sex workers are trafficked and not all sex workers find their work traumatic or something they need to be rescued from. Someone writing about a character who does sex work is not necessarily bent on writing tropes. Please show some respect and consideration for their points of view. There are sex workers who read and comment here.

Soapbox? Soapbox?!

And finally:

And as far as I could tell, you were talking about it…but to be really blunt I’m not here to talk about knitting or cats or to help someone else write their book. (For one thing I’m a writer too and I don’t believe in that. I’m even puzzled why a writer is asking for others to pitch in. The fun part is coming up with characters and their backstory, in my opinion. I mean do you really care if I think she should like ice cream or like to play Parcheesi? Are those the things you wanted to know? I have no clue what type of personality she should have because I don’t know your style, story, any of it. And even if I did, YOU should write it.) I wanted to talk about feminist issues. Maybe I am in the wrong place. Or maybe this is a clique that isn’t very welcoming. Or maybe some of both.

Woah.

I… I mean, wow.

Look, I’m a writer too, at least occassionally when I can stop hating myself, and other people pitching in and bouncing off ideas are the greatest fun I have with writing. Seeing how others see things is one of the wonders of the world, to me, personally, and when someone asks a question about something it’s a wonderful chance to think about something that might be interesting or fun or cool or amusing.

You don’t need to care that a dwarven civilzation lives near the ancient husk of an actual god encased in a fragment of a Creation, but if I ask you how infinite flowing water would impact your desert society I’d at least expect an answer because it’s a fascinating question.

That’s why there’s acknowledgement pages in books, you know.

I haven’t made any personal slams so far, but I will now – Tea for Two doesn’t seem interested in talking about anything or anyone but Tea for Two. Let me channel the MRA for a second:

Ahem

I hereby give notice of my withdrawal of my consent to the previous statement of wishing you to particpate in this conversation. I am no longer interested in that eventuality

I got carried away.

Thanks guys, though! You are lovely and I appreciate it.

(Also LBT, what. what. whaaaaat. But you word so good-well! Fibi am poor insomniac. Him no good word use speak. Write infinitely much better plus good does the system)
———-

To get back on topic, here’s something I’ve been wondering about:

What is with the PUA’s and their odd duality?

What I mean is this – they’re people apparently dedicated to the art of suave. Yet, whenever they come here, there’s no humor, no grace, no wit, no charm, no art, nothing. They just seem… well sort of creepy, really.

What’s happening there? How come? The internet does not magically sap away charisma, so that can’t be it. If this is the response they get here, it has to be the response they get elsewhere too (if perhaps with less snark), so wouldn’t they quickly realize that they are not being very charming, suave or interesting… yet they don’t?

I don’t get it.

How can you persist in insisting that you are the most charming killer of ladies when people react to you with pitchforks, poetry and puns?

Ew, I didn’t even SEE that line:

I’m even puzzled why a writer is asking for others to pitch in.

Tea For Two, I’m a writer. I wrote forty-two stories last year and I sold over thirty of them. That’s pretty damn good. I ask my audience’s opinion because THEY PAY ME. I want to write what they want to read, because that’s what puts food on my table. This doesn’t mean I’m a bad writer. It means I fucking care about my audience, which any professional wants.

Also, writing doesn’t have to be a solitary pursuit. Admittedly, I take it to an extreme (almost all the writing I sell is SPECIFICALLY based on prompts given by my audience, and voting over which ones get illustrated and ebookified, and talking to my readers about what they want to see) but the whole Lone Artiste sitting alone and pouring out Their Soul without any input from anyone is only one way to be a writer. And frankly, it’s a relatively new invention. The majority of writers throughout history are like me, getting commissioned to write what the commissioner wants to read, thus the elaborate gushing praises in the dedication pages.

Now get off your high horse, I need the meat.

RE: Fibinachi

How can you persist in insisting that you are the most charming killer of ladies when people react to you with pitchforks, poetry and puns?

I’m going to rely on Old Spice Guy here and respond with, “Look at yourself, now look at me, now back at yourself, now back to me. Sadly, you aren’t me. But if you do Game, you can ACT like me. What’s in your hand? Back to me. It’s an HB10! What’s over there? Now back to me. The HB is now DIAMONDS!”

Wait! Unimaginative! I POSTED UR STORY! Still working on the bonus sketch.

Tracy, yay for good news!

Now get off your high horse, I need the meat.

Oh no you don’t! We’ve already had David wanting to eat curried ponies!

I’m not into pouring out my soul either. It’s so hard to stuff back in.

Fibi, btw, has won ALL THE INTERNETS.

Cool! I’d heard there’s a whistling dialect in Greece (with only a couple hundred people fluent in it), but I didn’t know it was anywhere else.

@katz, there’s a not uncommon internet phenomenon in which a published author comes across a review that is not gushingly approving (like, maybe a 3-star) and goes on a freaking tear about being BULLIED by the reviewer. Who is clearly illiterate, biased, and unprofessional, and should be eaten by dogs. It’s bizarre, and oddly hypnotic.

Unimaginative, OMG, that’s Fanstory all over. What memories that brings back. XD

…Pecunium.

My autocorrect corrects the word “autocorrect” to”incorrect.” It knows itself well.

Have you any older pics of the budgies?

No, they’re rather difficult to photograph.

Did you say you’re in Brisbane wewereemergencies? Did you know I do pet photography? Proof -> https://www.flickr.com/photos/kimmau/sets/72157637791967944/ 🙂

If you are in Brisbane, I could try taking some pics of your birds, if you were interested. It would be fun to try anyway, and to meet a fellow mammotheer.

Katz: I’ll ping you in e-mail.

Wheeee! Well done, wewereemergencies. Our writing usually isn’t as sucky as we think at first. 😀

I was thinking similarly about Kim’s gorgeous photos – “Hmm, now if only sister and BiL weren’t on the dole/pension, they could go down to Brisbane and get some awesome photos of Laddie and Pepe.”

Buggrit!