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Mighty White of You

mrdatarace

So here’s an interesting chart. Guess what it represents?

A) The membership of the David Duke Fan Club

B) The racial breakdown of the most successful Liberace impersonators

C) The demographics of the Men’s Rights subreddit

Well, ok, that was too easy. It is of course all of the above. I’m guessing. It’s definitely C, at least, as this chart was prepared to show the results of the 2013 Men’s Rights subreddit demographic survey.

Now, you might say, well, isn’t Reddit itself a pretty white place? And you would be right. But the Men’s Rights subreddit seems to be a bit whiter — and a lot less black — than Reddit as a whole, if Quantcast’s estimates of Reddit’s overall ethnic breakdown are accurate.

redditoverallrace

In other completely non-surprising news, 89% of Men’s Rights Redditors are men. And a lot of them are libertarians. MRAs complain endlessly that we pigeonhole them as a bunch of entitled white dudes. They’re really not doing much to challenge that assumption.

The most important issue to these fellas (and the small minority that aren’t fellas)? Survey says: False rape accusations.

Other critical issues to the Men’s Rightsers include “custody rights” (which is a bit odd because 92% of those surveyed have no kids), “legal discrimination” (whatever that means), “education discrimination” (this is a thing?), and “male disposability.”

“Male birth control” and “paper abortion,” while relatively less important to the Men’s Rightsers, each got hundreds of votes.

I’m surprised “friendzoning” isn’t at the top of the list, but unfortunately it wasn’t one of the choices. I blame misandry.

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Obsidian Files
8 years ago

Nobinayamu:
“Yeah, long before assholes were fleecing idiots by telling them to pick women up and put them on their laps, short men were getting laid. This isn’t new.”

O: Prove it.

“Feminism doesn’t need to address whether or not women should date short men because women date short men every fucking day.”

O: No, they don’t.

“So stupid.”

O: Yes…unfortunately you are.

O.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
8 years ago

Is being tall really a traditional gender role? I’m ignorant on this subject. I’ve always thought of traditional male gender roles as being things like strength, bravery, assertiveness, Father-figure, not having strong emotions, being more aggressive, ect… I’ve never heard being tall added to that…

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

You aren’t putting any facts down. I don’t give a fuck how many people you have reading your shit–and if it’s so many, why drum up business here?

If you wanna be black and support the MRM, that is your misguided pleasure. When they boot you out of the treehouse, I won’t say “I told you so” too loudly.

chibigodzilla
8 years ago

Translation: I cannot handle the facts he is putting down, including the fact that he’s a Black Man making the case for Men’s Rights.

Bwahahahahahaha, facts!

*snort*

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

Obsidentium (the densest matter on Earth): do your grade-school caliber attempts at insults ever get old?

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
8 years ago

I do notice he did not take up my challenge of listing the issues we’re discussing specifically, and asserting his position on them with citations.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Howard:
“1 – “You’ve got a racist running the Spearhead,”

O: I’ve addressed this point…

“2 – an overwhelmingly white Movement;”

O: Just like the Feminist one is…

“3 – which blames blacks for a huge number of the ills it claims are causing a need for, (MRM)”

O: Actually, that would be the Alt-Right and so forth…

“4 – [the MRM is] “THE Civil Rights battle of the 21st century”.””

O: It is? That certainly is news to me…

“So, O challenges [1].”

O: Right…

“But [1] follows from [2] and [3]. Care to challenge those?”

O: See above…

“[2] – but feminists are white too! (ignoring my link, ignoring any facts produced by others… yay!)”

O: I see it’s starting to catch on…

“[3] – hasn’t addressed this at all. I wonder why?”

O: Again, see above…

O.

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
8 years ago

O: Nah; that I’m quite the prolific and talented, writer.

I’ll be sure to ask.

cloudiah
8 years ago

O. Since your only reply on the Great Migration issue was to paste a link that in no way refuted what I said, I believe it is now on me to thank you for your tacit acknowledgement that I was correct about the majority of the US black population living outside of the South currently. And therefore right about my original thesis on this subject.

Your tacit apology is accepted.

Interesting to see a self-identified MRA say that violence against men is not an issue that is important to the MRM.

Other people have addressed your weaksauce arguments about Game.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Hellkell:
“Obsidentium (the densest matter on Earth): do your grade-school caliber attempts at insults ever get old?”

O: If you’re indication – not yet…

O.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Relevant to discussion of W.F. Price earlier, I was looking through the manboobz archives and found this gem.

Looking through the comments, I found W.F. Price issuing a stern rebuke to the White Nationalist whom David quoted:

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/03/20/divorced-dads-and-little-league/#comment-138733

Where “stern rebuke” means “white nationalists don’t control white women enough.” That’s the unkindest thing he had to say about white nationalists. He’s that much of a misogynist.

Also, later in that same comment thread, W.F. Price lauds the commenter greyghost as practically being an editor of the site. That same greyghost said this earlier the same year:

Men actually have the capacity to love. Only a man can write an article like that. Women just don’t have the capacity to love. Women gina tingle. …

The big lie was and is that a woman can love. Romance is what men do women receive it. …

The MRM with women on board on not will never ever change the nature of women. No matter how much awareness of the pain men and even children are in, women will vote and demand what is in therir childish perception of their interest. ( It will always be uninhibitted status and hypergamy)

Check out greyghost’s other stuff:

http://manboobz.com/?s=greyghost

So, ObsidianFiles, why is all this raw misogyny so relevant to your interests?

cloudiah
8 years ago

Oh wait, I was reading the wrong chart. OF is actually correct that the majority of the black population in the US does live in the South as of 2010; I am still correct that the largest in-country population migration that has ever occurred in the the US is the migration of 6 million black men, women and children out of the South, which still (I believe) supports my thesis that people do not in fact prefer Southern-style open racism.

Draw, I think.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Cloudiah:
“O. Since your only reply on the Great Migration issue was to paste a link that in no way refuted what I said,”

O: Actually it did. In case you didn’t read it, here it go:

“In the nineteenth century, most free people who left the South migrated to the northern states in search of a better life. They clustered in small communities in the larger cities and helped establish the Black urban North. During what is known as the First Great Migration some 1.5 million Black people moved north between 1916 and 1930. The Second Great Migration, between 1940 and 1970, brought 5 million Black Southerners North and West.
By 1970, 47 percent of the nation’s African Americans lived outside the South, and more than 80 percent were in urban areas. That’s when the migration patterns reversed and Blacks began returning south in large numbers. As they returned south, many followed the same paths that their predecessors used when they migrated north. Theses routes were along the old railroad routes: from eastern cities toward the Carolinas; from Ohio and Michigan cities toward Alabama; from Chicago toward Mississippi; and from Los Angeles toward East Texas.

Although some African-American migrants were returning home, many were actually born in the North and were seeking economic opportunities rather than familial ties. They headed in large numbers for rapidly growing metropolitan areas such as Atlanta,Charlotte, Dallas, and Nashville.”

http://blackdemographics.com/geography/african-american-migration/

“Interesting to see a self-identified MRA say that violence against men is not an issue that is important to the MRM.”

O: I didn’t say that. What I said was that the matter was being handled very well by law enforcement – to the tune of dramatic all time lows in violent crime in places like Philly and NYC.

“Other people have addressed your weaksauce arguments about Game.”

O: No, they haven’t – unless you consider incoherent harangues “addressing” anything…

O.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

What I said was that the matter was being handled very well by law enforcement – to the tune of dramatic all time lows in violent crime in places like Philly and NYC.

Link? Citation? Bueller?

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Tulgey:
“So, ObsidianFiles, why is all this raw misogyny so relevant to your interests?”

O: It’s not; I don’t speak for Grey Ghost, nor does he speak for me.

O.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

So why are you okay with associating yourselves with a group of people that routinely dehumanize approximately half of the human population of planet earth?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Yourself*, rather

Nobinayamu
Nobinayamu
8 years ago

Nobinayamu:
“Yeah, long before assholes were fleecing idiots by telling them to pick women up and put them on their laps, short men were getting laid. This isn’t new.”

O: Prove it.

Are you fucking serious? My father is 5′ 5″, has 3 daughters. So he had sex at least three times.

Most of the other short men I’ve known have girlfriends/wives/fuck buddies.

“Feminism doesn’t need to address whether or not women should date short men because women date short men every fucking day.”

O: No, they don’t.

Okay, I think I see the problem. You are not “short men.” You may be a short man, but you and your experiences are not a monolithic representation.

Women do date short men. Every day. As evidence I present: the world right in front of me.

chibigodzilla
8 years ago

For a guy who claims to be part of the MRM, he sure does spend a lot of time saying “Oh, they don’t speak for me”

thebionicmommy
thebionicmommy
8 years ago

Do our policies now aim to punish and shame men for their sexual promiscuity? Many of my male students (in Miami where I teach), who come from low-income immigrant communities, believe that our punitive paternity policies are aimed at controlling their sexual behavior.

Child support is not about punishing fathers, or anyone else who produces sperm and impregnates women or other people with uteruses. The purpose of child support is to ensure that children, who are too young to work and support themselves, can have their basic needs met. Half of those children are boys, some of whom are boys of color. Why don’t their needs for food, shelter, and medical matter in these MRA discussions?

Also, if a dad is low income, then he will not be ordered to pay huge amounts for child support. If he has no income, he won’t be ordered to pay anything at all. So if a guy with a decent paying job is ordered to pay $300 a month in child support, but gets laid off, then he can get his order modified due to his change in financial circumstances.

So if a father is a low income immigrant, then the court will take his financial situation into consideration when they determine his financial responsibilities.

Also, why are you assuming that ALL women can afford to raise babies themselves with no help from fathers or any government support? Raising children costs A LOT of money. I am married and have white privilege, yet my family still falls back on some safety net programs for families with dependent children. So expecting a single mom to just “pull herself up by the boot straps” is unrealistic and unfair, regardless of her educational background. It’s unfair to her and to her children.

Moreover, the asymmetrical options that men and women now have when dealing with an unplanned pregnancy set up power imbalances in their sexual relationships that my male students find hugely unfair to them. Rather than punish men (or women) for their apparent reproductive irresponsibility by coercing legal paternity (or maternity), the government has other options, such as mandatory sex education, family planning counseling, or community service.

The reason cis men and cis women have different options is because they have different bodies. Cis women and trans* people with uteruses are the ones dealing with pregnancy and childbirth, so they get the option to have an abortion rather than being forced to carry a fetus against their will. Abortion is not a “get out of parenthood” free card. It’s an issue of bodily autonomy.

If scientists made it possible for cis men to gestate fetuses, then I would support their right to an abortion. But for now, that’s in the realm of science fiction and movies starring Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger.

drst
drst
8 years ago

Sorry, had things to do this afternoon:

Of course; but again, why be concerned about the speck in someone else’s eye when you’ve got a plank of plywood in yours?

Your demand that David & the rest of us focus on unrelated subjects instead of the one that’s disturbing to you personally and would like people not to think about is a derailing tactic. It’s a very, very old argument, btw. I’m sure you’re patting yourself on the back for how smart you’re being, but when your Mom yells at you for writing on the wall with crayon and you say you saw your sister spill grape juice on the carpet once… well, that’s the level of rhetoric you’re at right now.

SittieKitty
SittieKitty
8 years ago

It’s part of that selective hearing thing that the MRAs have a monopoly on chibigodzilla.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@Hellkell:
“Link? Citation? Bueller?”

O: Why, Ms. Hellkell – I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that you haven’t sprinkled in a few well-placed four-letter words…

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/FBI_Violent_crime_down_in_Philly_up_nationwide.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/nyregion/414-homicides-is-a-record-low-for-new-york.html

O.

becausescience
becausescience
8 years ago

The reason cis men and cis women have different options is because they have different bodies. Cis women and trans* people with uteruses are the ones dealing with pregnancy and childbirth, so they get the option to have an abortion rather than being forced to carry a fetus against their will. Abortion is not a “get out of parenthood” free card. It’s an issue of bodily autonomy.

Yup. Like I said before, the “paper abortion” idea is an attempt to draw an equivalency where there is none. When a man gets pregnant, I fully support his right to terminate the pregnancy occurring in his body. Presently, men don’t tend to get pregnant. Women do, and so they get to choose. In the meantime, mra’s should be pressing for increased access to contraception, teaching of comprehensive sex ed, and the creation of an effective male birth control pill, which would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place. But alas, they’d rather spend their days making endless posts whining about “western women/modern women”.

Obsidian Files
8 years ago

@TheBionicMommy:
“Child support is not about punishing fathers, or anyone else who produces sperm and impregnates women or other people with uteruses. The purpose of child support is to ensure that children, who are too young to work and support themselves, can have their basic needs met. Half of those children are boys, some of whom are boys of color. Why don’t their needs for food, shelter, and medical matter in these MRA discussions?”

O: For the same reasons that they don’t when Women wish to abort their babies. That’s why.

“Also, if a dad is low income, then he will not be ordered to pay huge amounts for child support. If he has no income, he won’t be ordered to pay anything at all. So if a guy with a decent paying job is ordered to pay $300 a month in child support, but gets laid off, then he can get his order modified due to his change in financial circumstances.”

O: Have you read the book Doing The Best I Can? Because I believe they address this and related points. Other MRAs, like Sacks, has addressed this as well, and have a differing view.

“So if a father is a low income immigrant, then the court will take his financial situation into consideration when they determine his financial responsibilities.”

O: He is not responsible for a child he didn’t intend or want.

“Also, why are you assuming that ALL women can afford to raise babies themselves with no help from fathers or any government support?”

O: Because, per the recent Pew report, the majority of American Women who are working are breadwinners in their homes and families. As I’ve already pointed out, Black Women are attending college at record numbers. They are fully able to support themselves and any kids they wish to have. Why is this such a hard principle to grok, TBM – especially when Women (especially Black) have been so keen to inform anyone who will listen just how strong and independent they are?

“Raising children costs A LOT of money. I am married and have white privilege, yet my family still falls back on some safety net programs for families with dependent children. So expecting a single mom to just “pull herself up by the boot straps” is unrealistic and unfair, regardless of her educational background. It’s unfair to her and to her children.”

O: Then she has every opportunity not to have them, up to and including leaving the baby at the police station, firehouse or hospital, no questions asked…

“The reason cis men and cis women have different options is because they have different bodies.”

O: So do Gays and Lesbians. Yet we don’t craft law based on the biological hardwiring of the people invovled, and nor shouldn’t we.

“Cis women and trans* people with uteruses are the ones dealing with pregnancy and childbirth, so they get the option to have an abortion rather than being forced to carry a fetus against their will. Abortion is not a “get out of parenthood” free card. It’s an issue of bodily autonomy.”

O: Indeed; and RFM in no way infringes on a Woman’s bodily autonomy in the least. It merely gives Men the same right to determine when it is a good time to become a parent.

“If scientists made it possible for cis men to gestate fetuses, then I would support their right to an abortion. But for now, that’s in the realm of science fiction and movies starring Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger.”

O: We are not arguing for an abortion. We are arguing for the right to determine when it is best for us to become parents.

O.

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