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How to creep out the entire internet, lovelorn banker edition

Try dressing as a nun. Then maybe he'll go away.

Dating can be tough. It can be especially tough if your personality is a mixture of petulance and insecurity. And even tougher if you think you can argue someone who’s not interested in you into a second date with an angry, accusatory, sometimes hilarious, sometimes deeply unsettling 1600-word email. And no, I’m not speaking hypothetically here.

The email in question, written by a young investment banker named Mike to  an unfortunate woman named Lauren after one less-than-great date, was posted on Reddit a couple of days ago, and has already gotten a lot of internetty attention, but some of you may not have seen it, so I thought I’d give it a little fisking anyway. Settle in; it’s going to be a long and bumpy ride. (Note: What follows below is most of the email; I’ve cut out a few passages here and there.)

Hi Lauren,

I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.

Well, we’re off to a not-so-good start. Perhaps she is, as they say, just not that into you?

FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email.

Gosh, I wonder why Lauren didn’t get back to him.

By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.

Google-stalking – always a nice touch. There’s no better way to charm a nice lady than by tracking down her personal information online.

I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.

Uh, what? She’s ignoring you, dude. She doesn’t want to go out with you. Seems to me she’s sending you a pretty unmixed message here.

Should she have responded to your voicemail and/or texts? In an ideal world, perhaps, but she may have sensed that you’d react precisely how you’re reacting now, and didn’t want to have anything more to do with your creepy, entitled bullshit.

And now Mike the banker makes his, er, “case” for why she should go on a second date with him:

Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:

-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.

You were flirting!! Hair-twirling = sex! If you don’t realize it you can google search it!!!

-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.

Eye contact is an Indicator of Interest. IOI! IOI! If you didn’t want to bear my children why did you look at me, with your eyes????

-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.

Well, not really. This is what people say to be polite at the end of a disappointing date, when they don’t want to see you again.  If she wanted to see you again, she would have said something about making plans for a second date.

-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.

We had a conversation! You did not flee in horror! Therefore you must have my babies!!!

In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.

And sending someone who clearly wants nothing to do with you a long, creepy, accusatory tirade is polite?

Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship. 

Dude, you do understand that she has to actually like you too in order for there to be a relationship?

I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.

You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.

Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you.

Gain utility? Really? DATING IS NOT MICROECONOMICS!

In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.

Well, banker dude. You’re getting some feedback now. All over the internet.

If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind. In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.

So your argument is that she should go out with you, even though she doesn’t want to go out with you, because life isn’t perfect and you’re probably the best she really deserves?

Way to sell yourself, dude.

If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.

Well, she’s not really responsible for you thinking that every woman who twirls her hair in your presence wants to have your babies.

We have a number of things in common.

Oh dear, sounds like we’ve got another “logical” argument coming up here.

I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part.

Um, what?

I have no clever remark to make here, other than that Lauren is probably going to have to avoid going to the Philharmonic ever again, on the off chance she might run into banker Mike.

According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age.

YOU ARE RIGHT AGE. INTERNET SAYS SO. THEREFORE YOU MUST DATE ME.

 I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common.

Also, you both require oxygen to live. Lauren, can’t you see that you and banker Mike are soulmates?

I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.

Banker Mike: You said you wanted feedback. Here is some feedback. She was apparently not horrified by your physical appearance. It may be your horrible personality that needs some work.

Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.

You’re fighting a losing battle here, dude. Just as you cannot argue someone into liking you, you cannot argue someone into being impressed that you manage your parents’ money.

In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.

And I’m the Queen of Denmark.

That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you.

Oy. As if this email wasn’t stalkerish enough already.

I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.)

This last bit I have no trouble believing.

I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens.

I suspect that Lauren has already played out various scenarios in her head already, and that none of them end well.

Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too.

So now you’re being noble and “open minded” for trying to pressure a woman who wants nothing to do with you into a second date?

If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.

Now you’re just making my skin crawl.

I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.

Here’s a solution, dude: How about she never goes on another date with you, ever. Then you won’t ever have to worry about her being late ever again.

If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.

I hope you find the feedback that the internet has now provided you to be helpful.

If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals).

Now we’re back on this again.

In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.

Damn you, foul strumpet, and your devious hair-playing ways! Google it! GOOGLE IT!!!

I would like to talk to you on the phone.

I think you’ve pretty much guaranteed that this will never, ever happen.

Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.

Not much to misinterpret here, Mike. You’ve made it absolutely crystal clear that you’re an undateable creep.

Let me be serious for a moment. Forget about Lauren. Hell, forget about women in general for a while, and work on yourself. Get some therapy; you can afford it. Work through your bitterness, your petulance, your highly unattractive mixture of entitlement and insecurity. Stop being a “Nice Guy” and learn to be genuinely nice.

And don’t ever, ever, ever write another email like this one.

 

 

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Shora
10 years ago

To bounce off what Cassandra is saying;

“No” is a complete sentence. Arguing with someone’s “no” is violating a clear boundary which is entitled at best and downright frightening at worst. This is one social rule that you can never go wrong with adhering to strictly.

RocketFrog
RocketFrog
10 years ago

Cassandra:

Yes, it does make sense. But the problem is that some decisions people make are final, and others are tentative. Many decisions that people make are later changed, for example after hearing arguments from another perspective. It can be very difficult to tell the difference – in fact, I have observed that many “normal” people also have trouble with this. There are apparently some unspoken cultural conventions for which decisions should be treated as final and which should be treated as tentative, and many autistic people have difficulty with these.

“Mike” appears to treat at least “Lauren’s” decision to not want to date him as a tentative decision. I can understand that this might make “Lauren” feel that he is not respecting her decision, if it is, for her, a final decision. David writes:

“You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.”

If “Mike” is autistic (and we don’t know if he is), he may not understand that that’s not how it works. There are many other situations where people routinely argue their case, and the other person changes his or her mind. Why does dating not work that way? It is precisely this kind of social nuance – which situations call for arguments, and which don’t – that often cause difficulty for some autists. Personally, I have memorized a checklist (and “anything related to love or sex” is in the “don’t argue; all decisions are to be treated as final” category), but I honestly can’t see anything remotely resembling a real system to it. So sometimes I too can come across as either a complete pushover (when treating a tentative decision as final) or as an insensitive asshole (when treating a final decision as tentative).

RocketFrog
RocketFrog
10 years ago

Shora:

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but from the OP, it seems that “Mike” never got a direct “no”, but was ignored.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

“Yes, it does make sense. But the problem is that some decisions people make are final, and others are tentative. Many decisions that people make are later changed, for example after hearing arguments from another perspective. It can be very difficult to tell the difference – in fact, I have observed that many “normal” people also have trouble with this. There are apparently some unspoken cultural conventions for which decisions should be treated as final and which should be treated as tentative, and many autistic people have difficulty with these.”

Decisions about whether or not a person wants to date someone, is attracted to someone, etc., are almost always final. Attraction isn’t like a political belief – it’s not responsive to persuasive arguments about why you should in fact find the person attractive. It just doesn’t work that way.

Think about it from your own perspective. If you met a woman and thought she was physically unattractive, and you disliked her personality, would you be responsive to arguments from her about why you should find her physically attractive, or like her more? Attraction just isn’t in the category of things that people change their mind about as a result of being argued with.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

In a dating context, being consistently ignored is in effect a direct no.

RocketFrog
RocketFrog
10 years ago

Cassandra: My point is that if it is correct, as several other posters have speculated, that “Mike” is autistic, then he may not be aware that being ignored should be considered equivalent to a direct “no”.

Back when I was still dating (and considerably younger), I made a real fool of myself on one occasion – badly – before I discovered that particular rule. When I found out how I had been perceived, and how I had made her feel, I was horrified and frankly ashamed.

RocketFrog
RocketFrog
10 years ago

Lest it be forgotten: I am not defending “Mike”‘s letter. It is just that several posters have remarked that it “screams aspie”, and if he *is* in fact autistic, then it is *possible* that he doesn’t understand that he is coming across as an entitled asshole.

This does not *excuse* acting poorly, but it may *explain* acting poorly.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

The asshole part is the bit where he berates her about how she’ll really be missing out if she rejects him, and repeatedly demands apologies, though, not the part where he doesn’t understand that she has already effectively rejected him.

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

The next time that you feminists crybaby about rape, spousal abuse, domestic violence, or any other instance of hostility and brutality expressed against women, do the men of this world a favor, and just look over some of your posts right here on manboobz.com!
Even if it IS a man who commits the violent assault, even if HE is responsible for the attack (or is it a counterattack?) against the feminist, and even if he, and NOBODY ELSE is held to blame, I think that some of the posts here, showing how HATEFUL feminists can be, will remind youall of something!

What hate? o_O I see no hate from the non-troll posters here… xD Show me the hate Meller xD

You said “JUST LOOK AT YOUR POSTS” but I have… xD And so have my friends… and others I’ve asked… nobody sees hate o_O

What hate? o: Since YOU see hate, you wouldn’t mind quoting some here so we know what you consider “hate” and which quotes you believe are understandable if they “provoke” a violent response? 😀

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

Hey Mellertron…

did my mom provoke my dad’s abuse? If so, how? 😮

You’re the great knower of such things after all… so I’m curious to hear you explain :3

RocketFrog
RocketFrog
10 years ago

I agree about the requests for apologies.

For me, the passage I found problematic was mainly this: “If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals.”

This is unreasonable. No matter what she “signalled” during their date, her decision to not see him again might not have been made yet at that point, whereas he seems to assume that she was deliberately leading him on, which he has no evidence to support. And if he *is* an aspie (at least if he is a diagnosed one), he should pay extra attention to the fact that he is likely to get “signals” wrong (the ones he notices at all), and avoid putting too much faith in his interpretation of them.

Also: “If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.”

Although he makes sure to qualify that this is an opinion, I do not think he has any right to make that judgment. Also, implying that opting out of his company is a life-changing mistake implies a quite unhealthy ego.

I did not, in general, perceive him as berating or accusatory, though.

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

Hi, RocketFrog. I have Asperger’s.

Honestly, the kind of things he writes mostly appear entirely reasonable to me. He is just stating a set of facts, and telling her how he feels about a number of things. The way he writes about these things reminds me a lot of my own thoughts about similar situations…

While this observation accords with the letter in isolation, in context is appears that this is not the first time that this person has done this.
http://www.theluxuryspot.com/2011/12/08/theres-more-to-the-break-up-email-guy/
If it’s the same guy in both situations, this is a pattern with him. And the last time, the recipient of his letters called the police. He has received information relating to his actions, in the past, and it has not modified his behavior in the present. It’s not just that he’s an Aspie, “Mike” is also a sonofabitch.

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

Also: “If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.”

Although he makes sure to qualify that this is an opinion, I do not think he has any right to make that judgment. Also, implying that opting out of his company is a life-changing mistake implies a quite unhealthy ego.

It sounded like a threat to me.

zhinxy
10 years ago

“What hate? o: Since YOU see hate, you wouldn’t mind quoting some here so we know what you consider “hate” and which quotes you believe are understandable if they “provoke” a violent response? ”

Seriously. You mentioned me by name. Where’s my hate and bitterness?

Ami Angelwings
10 years ago

By making the claim that you can understand the rationale and motivation behind the rape, feminists say you are “apologizing” for the rapist. This is not the case with most men saying they can “get why he did it”. We aren’t “apologizing” for it, we just can see why he MIGHT of committed the crime.

I have a question Mellertron.. do you believe the rationale and motivation behind rape should affect the investigation and judicial process and sentencing, and if so how? :3

RocketFrog
RocketFrog
10 years ago

VoIP: OK; I was not aware that he had sent similar letters before. Then he *should* have found out by now that they scare and disturb the recipients, and then he is an asshole for still sending them. Particularly if the police has been involved.

My comments were only about this particular one, I was not aware that there was a pattern.

I am not sure I see the threat in that paragraph I quoted.

Shora
10 years ago

“The biggest mistake of your life” Is a very threatening phrase, especially when combined with a very low-stakes choice (to go out with a guy again or not). Pretty much what it translates to is “I’ll make it the biggest mistake of your life through harrasment and/or violence”

Lian Li
Lian Li
10 years ago

@CassandraSays:

I totally agree that a very large range of experiences in terms of number of partners is normal and awesome and etc.

What exactly might this range be?

Monsieur sans Nom
Monsieur sans Nom
10 years ago

While this observation accords with the letter in isolation, in context is appears that this is not the first time that this person has done this.
http://www.theluxuryspot.com/2011/12/08/theres-more-to-the-break-up-email-guy/
If it’s the same guy in both situations, this is a pattern with him. And the last time, the recipient of his letters called the police. He has received information relating to his actions, in the past, and it has not modified his behavior in the present. It’s not just that he’s an Aspie, “Mike” is also a sonofabitch.

Actually, I daresay that “Mike” is apocryphal. You and RocketFrog may not realize this, but this e-mail and ALL variations of it are fake. Someone fabricated this e-mail and posted it on multiple sites and by now it has pretty much gone viral and is all over the internets. As for me, I have asperger syndrome(diagnosed some 20 years ago)and that e-mail actually gave me a good laugh. :-p

Bostonian
10 years ago

As we all know Monsieur sans Nom does not, if fact, have Aspergers, and is just fabricating this across multiple threads.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

“Mike the banker” writes down very specific physical signals, and “textbook” definitions of what they conventionally mean, which is one indicator that he might be on the autistic spectrum. His letter also seems to indicate trouble putting himself in the position of “Lauren”, which is also a common characteristic of autistic people.

I think of lot of Mike’s stuff could come from someone who’s got Asperger’s/is autistic, but it could just as easily come from someone who bought into the whole PUA/”Game” bullshit. A lot of what PUA/Game stuff seems to teach is almost how to act like an autistic person might, but to do so purposefully and maliciously; pick out certain signals and refuse to admit that their interpretation is not set in stone and blame the woman for “signaling wrong”, don’t put yourself in the woman’s shoes because you don’t give a shit about her feelings, persist past her “no” not because you don’t understand her boundaries but because you are trying to break them down as a calculated plan.

So it’s possible that Mike is genuinely unclear on why his approach is creepy and inappropriate, and genuinely thinks the letter will help, but it’s definitely just as likely that he is purposefully ignoring the input his brain is giving him (“twirling hair doesn’t mean she has to like you, silence probably means no, this letter might creep her out”) and is barging through his social instincts because he thinks deliberately ignoring those social rules will get him what he wants. If he truly knows better and is doing it anyways, that’s assholish and manipulative.

darksidecat
10 years ago

To the best of my knowledge, Brandon is not a holocaust apologist or a holocaust denier (unlike Meller and NWO), and I did not intend my use of holocaust analogies to paint him as such (I did try to make that clear). Just wanted to reiterate that, because as little as I like Brandon, I don’t think he has engaged in behavior to warrant that particular allegation.

Moving on,

Yeah though, I am an aspie too (I am high verbal and always have been, so even though some of my childhood behaviors were often more typical of “classic” autism, that’s the conclusion). I am actually better with social behaviors on a large theory scale, like a biologist observing a different species, than I am with subtle cues. I know that lots of people can get a lot from eyebrows (and apparantly, they can guess without even the eyebrow codes from the eye muscles? I don’t know any of those codes, I’ve only gotten better at eyebrow ones in the past few years), but I have to learn everything from scratch, it isn’t instinctive, though after long enough, I can make it a habit (there are certain coded phrases I respond “properly” to out of habit, I use a certain voice tone out of habit, etc.). I’m better with vocal cues than body language or facial cues, and slightly better at large body language (set of shoulders) than at small body language (hand motions) and facial cues, but I am actually very good at large scale social patterns and certain types of coded language. And sometimes I notice things that others do instinctively but don’t notice (I have yet to meet a neurotypical person who was not surprised to learn that NT people sync up when they take steps in groups, watch them, unless someone has “fallen behind”, they take steps at the same time).

“Entitled asshole” and aspie aren’t mutually exclusive, but they don’t follow from each other either. And, as a loud and not shy aspie who likes to argue and can at times (and sometimes does) not notice when I am making others uncomfortable, I don’t in fact actually get pegged as an aspie for it too often. I’m highly intellectual and aggressive, and have never actually had someone make that excuse for me. Of course, I’m not a cis hetero man, so people don’t go out of their way to make excuses for me if I were to act like an asshole in romantic situations…

VoiP
VoiP
10 years ago

Actually, I daresay that “Mike” is apocryphal. You and RocketFrog may not realize this, but this e-mail and ALL variations of it are fake. Someone fabricated this e-mail and posted it on multiple sites and by now it has pretty much gone viral and is all over the internets.

u mad?

As for me, I have asperger syndrome(diagnosed some 20 years ago)…

This is almost certainly bullshit.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

“The biggest mistake of your life” Is a very threatening phrase, especially when combined with a very low-stakes choice (to go out with a guy again or not). Pretty much what it translates to is “I’ll make it the biggest mistake of your life through harrasment and/or violence”

In all fairness, it could also just be him having a huge ego and really thinking that not having him in her life would be a devastating loss. But I can also easily read it as a threat, too — it’s a bit like saying “I’ll make this second date an offer she can’t refuse*!” Like, technically maybe that just means it is such a super awesome offer that there’s no way she’d refuse, but more commonly it’s a threat that means if she doesn’t take the offer he’ll do something terrible to her. :p

*read this in a old-timey gangster voice for the full effect. ;D

zhinxy
10 years ago

monsieur noname – ” I have asperger syndrome(diagnosed some 20 years ago) – You would have been a VERY early diagnosis (since it was only added to the DSM-IV in 1994. ) . Can you elaborate? I’m curious as to how you were helped so long ago. Most of us had to bump around the mental health system for a long time before we found the information to make sense of our symptoms.

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