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How to creep out the entire internet, lovelorn banker edition

Try dressing as a nun. Then maybe he'll go away.

Dating can be tough. It can be especially tough if your personality is a mixture of petulance and insecurity. And even tougher if you think you can argue someone who’s not interested in you into a second date with an angry, accusatory, sometimes hilarious, sometimes deeply unsettling 1600-word email. And no, I’m not speaking hypothetically here.

The email in question, written by a young investment banker named Mike to  an unfortunate woman named Lauren after one less-than-great date, was posted on Reddit a couple of days ago, and has already gotten a lot of internetty attention, but some of you may not have seen it, so I thought I’d give it a little fisking anyway. Settle in; it’s going to be a long and bumpy ride. (Note: What follows below is most of the email; I’ve cut out a few passages here and there.)

Hi Lauren,

I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.

Well, we’re off to a not-so-good start. Perhaps she is, as they say, just not that into you?

FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email.

Gosh, I wonder why Lauren didn’t get back to him.

By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.

Google-stalking – always a nice touch. There’s no better way to charm a nice lady than by tracking down her personal information online.

I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.

Uh, what? She’s ignoring you, dude. She doesn’t want to go out with you. Seems to me she’s sending you a pretty unmixed message here.

Should she have responded to your voicemail and/or texts? In an ideal world, perhaps, but she may have sensed that you’d react precisely how you’re reacting now, and didn’t want to have anything more to do with your creepy, entitled bullshit.

And now Mike the banker makes his, er, “case” for why she should go on a second date with him:

Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:

-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.

You were flirting!! Hair-twirling = sex! If you don’t realize it you can google search it!!!

-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.

Eye contact is an Indicator of Interest. IOI! IOI! If you didn’t want to bear my children why did you look at me, with your eyes????

-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.

Well, not really. This is what people say to be polite at the end of a disappointing date, when they don’t want to see you again.  If she wanted to see you again, she would have said something about making plans for a second date.

-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.

We had a conversation! You did not flee in horror! Therefore you must have my babies!!!

In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.

And sending someone who clearly wants nothing to do with you a long, creepy, accusatory tirade is polite?

Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship. 

Dude, you do understand that she has to actually like you too in order for there to be a relationship?

I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.

You cannot argue someone into a second date! That’s not how it works.

Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you.

Gain utility? Really? DATING IS NOT MICROECONOMICS!

In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.

Well, banker dude. You’re getting some feedback now. All over the internet.

If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind. In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.

So your argument is that she should go out with you, even though she doesn’t want to go out with you, because life isn’t perfect and you’re probably the best she really deserves?

Way to sell yourself, dude.

If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.

Well, she’s not really responsible for you thinking that every woman who twirls her hair in your presence wants to have your babies.

We have a number of things in common.

Oh dear, sounds like we’ve got another “logical” argument coming up here.

I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part.

Um, what?

I have no clever remark to make here, other than that Lauren is probably going to have to avoid going to the Philharmonic ever again, on the off chance she might run into banker Mike.

According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age.

YOU ARE RIGHT AGE. INTERNET SAYS SO. THEREFORE YOU MUST DATE ME.

 I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common.

Also, you both require oxygen to live. Lauren, can’t you see that you and banker Mike are soulmates?

I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.

Banker Mike: You said you wanted feedback. Here is some feedback. She was apparently not horrified by your physical appearance. It may be your horrible personality that needs some work.

Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.

You’re fighting a losing battle here, dude. Just as you cannot argue someone into liking you, you cannot argue someone into being impressed that you manage your parents’ money.

In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.

And I’m the Queen of Denmark.

That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you.

Oy. As if this email wasn’t stalkerish enough already.

I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.)

This last bit I have no trouble believing.

I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens.

I suspect that Lauren has already played out various scenarios in her head already, and that none of them end well.

Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too.

So now you’re being noble and “open minded” for trying to pressure a woman who wants nothing to do with you into a second date?

If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.

Now you’re just making my skin crawl.

I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.

Here’s a solution, dude: How about she never goes on another date with you, ever. Then you won’t ever have to worry about her being late ever again.

If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.

I hope you find the feedback that the internet has now provided you to be helpful.

If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals).

Now we’re back on this again.

In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.

Damn you, foul strumpet, and your devious hair-playing ways! Google it! GOOGLE IT!!!

I would like to talk to you on the phone.

I think you’ve pretty much guaranteed that this will never, ever happen.

Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.

Not much to misinterpret here, Mike. You’ve made it absolutely crystal clear that you’re an undateable creep.

Let me be serious for a moment. Forget about Lauren. Hell, forget about women in general for a while, and work on yourself. Get some therapy; you can afford it. Work through your bitterness, your petulance, your highly unattractive mixture of entitlement and insecurity. Stop being a “Nice Guy” and learn to be genuinely nice.

And don’t ever, ever, ever write another email like this one.

 

 

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a Nadder
10 years ago

As similar as this is to other creepy letters I agree with one comment on Reddit that he almost certainly has severe Asperger’s. Do people here agree with this assessment and if so does this change your reaction?

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

With my Trollopathic powers, I predict that the troll comments on this one will all heavily imply, but never quite state, that women should go out with anyone who asks them, because preferring to only date people you like is picky entitled bitch behavior.

This will soon reach a reductio ad absurdum in which the only way to satisfy the trolls’ demands will be to allot each man a randomly selected woman.

Eventually the conversation will come to a stalemate as the trolls will bemoan at length how, for a man, not getting laid is the worst torture ever. (Women could never understand because any woman can have Brad Pitt any time she wants.)

(Brad Pitt may be 20 years older than many of the posters here, but it’s always Brad Pitt. He is the designated Only Man Women Want and I guess he will be until he dies.)

blitzgal
10 years ago

My troll prediction is that every comment will boil down to: “What a bitch!”

KathleenB
KathleenB
10 years ago

Entitled asshat much?

AbsintheDexterous
10 years ago

You can even do a google search on it.

I wonder if he’s aware of all Internet traditions. Actually, I’m in love with this phrase…

Investment Bankers can be twits. You can even do a google search on it

Cookies are yummy. You can even do a google search on it

Now I know how to amuse myself all day tomorrow…

zhinxy
10 years ago

She should have been way impressed about how he had all that money, but she’s not cause he’s a beta and she’s gonna go after some rich alpha.

hellkell
hellkell
10 years ago

I bet we’ll hear “ALPHA FUKC BITCHES!!11” before the night is through.

The OP forgot to mention that Lauren needs to put the lotion on her skin or else she’ll get the hose again.

Some people on the Gawker thread where I saw this said he sounded like he was on the autism spectrum, but I think he’s a control-freak asshat.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

I think the reason his “job” is managing his parents’ money is that he sends this kind of email to EVERYONE he interacts with:

“Hi, Mr. job interviewer, I’m disappointed in you. I felt like we had a really good interview yesterday, but you haven’t gotten back to any of my texts — I sent approximately 42 of them, did you miss them? I can send more — and I am disappointed about that. I think I could be really good for your company because I am awesome. I thought you liked me too, because you seemed really interested in my life and kept asking questions about me while making eye contact, which is really leading me on. You also were dressed in a nice suit so I assumed you wanted me to like you. I think you should still hire me, and I’ll still give you a chance because I don’t want you to make a huge mistake missing out on me, but either way it would be polite for you to give me extensive feedback about what exactly you didn’t like, and also you should apologize for leading me on and interviewing me if you knew it was possible you wouldn’t hire me. I googled your home address (btw your wife is really pretty) and I would love to meet up with you and talk about this in person because it’s easy to misinterpret emails. Thanks.”

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

For Holly

Women should go out with anyone who asks them, that the woman wants to go out with, or anyone the woman asks to go out with them and the person they asked out wants to go out with the woman.

Presumably this woman in question posted the email online without Mikes wishes, which I think is a little harsh and probably very embarassing for Mike if his details ever come out, I doubt he meant this email to be seen by the web. It was good of Lauren to block his details and hopefully she also changed both her and his name.

I wouldn’t compare this to him finding her email online, I know I have been found on facebook/other social site by people I had only passing interest in. He may have wanted to take the hint of the ignored phone calls and texts.

Bee
Bee
10 years ago

Wow. That’s the longest way to say “I’m a big asshole, please avoid me” ever.

As a side note, haven’t we all gotten that letter at some point in our dating lives?

AbsintheDexterous
10 years ago

Also, she’s not really a person, she’s just a checklist of things. Eye contact? Check. Hair playing? Check. He’s managed to notice all of these things about her, except her “no”, which would be obvious by the fact that she does not contact him.

Is he a boundary tester? Check!

Ullere
Ullere
10 years ago

‘On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.’

I don’t know why but that line cracks me up. I cannot read it without laughing.

Bagelsan
Bagelsan
10 years ago

Presumably this woman in question posted the email online without Mikes wishes, which I think is a little harsh and probably very embarassing for Mike if his details ever come out, I doubt he meant this email to be seen by the web.

I’m sure he did not mean for anyone except the target um victim um totally-compatible-female-of-breeding-age to see this email. Most guys like that don’t want their actions to see the light of day at all. Funny how that works.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

I predict that some of our trolls will insist that, since women don’t know what they want, if Lauren was playing with here hair she must have wanted to go out with him again/have sex with him really, she just didn’t realize.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
10 years ago

I’m sure that Mike didn’t intend his email to be seen by anyone other than Lauren. As long as she didn’t post any identifying information about him, I don’t know why I’m supposed to care.

Viscaria
Viscaria
10 years ago

Bagelsan, you’re awesome.

As far as the OP… Jeeeeeeeeez. And I thought my 7:00 am* wake-up phone call after an unsuccessful 2nd date (I thought we had something special! I can’t believe you won’t give us a chance!) was bad.

*This is where you hate me for being a student and thinking 7:00 is crazy early to wake up.

Xenotime
Xenotime
10 years ago

“Based on my preliminary calculations I conclude that it would be in your best financial and genetic interest to enter into a long-term relationship with me. I’ve modeled a number of scenarios over a 20-year time interval and the probability of us producing a genetically superior offspring are at least two standard deviations higher than the norm. Also, as someone in the top 1% of earners you would be wise to associate romantically with me as the fortunes of the affluent continue to decouple from the masses due to globalization and the strengthening locus of money and political influence… Wait, where are you going?”

Holly Pervocracy
10 years ago

She didn’t give him her email address. He tracked it down online without her permission.

That makes me not worry about his online privacy so much. (I don’t think giving away his real name or email address would help anything, but I’m not going to shed tears that this matter wasn’t handled with the utmost discretion, either.)

ozymandias42
10 years ago

Sapients and gentlebeings, you cannot argue someone into wanting to date you. No matter how many Powerpoints you present or how airtight your logic is, relationships are inherently squishy. “Dunno, don’t wanna” is a perfectly valid reason not to date someone, and you can’t change that.

I mean, if the reason she doesn’t want to date you is because you killed her father, but it was actually your evil twin brother, who is identical to you except for the mole on the back of his neck in the shape of Canada, then I think you can explain and show her the picture of the back of your neck to show that your mole is, in fact, in the shape of Swaziland. Other than that, no dice.

blitzgal
10 years ago

According to people who claim to know these folks, neither Lauren nor Mike are their real names.

Viscaria
Viscaria
10 years ago

I once made plans with someone, but felt uncomfortable with them on the day so I contacted him to cancel. It was rudely last-minute, to be sure, but I realized it was the wrong thing for me and I would have totally understood if he’d chosen not to see me again because of it. So anyway, I called him, and told him a couple of the reasons I would have preferred to reschedule. Every reason I gave him he argued down, getting increasingly angry as he did it. I felt disheveled coming straight from work? He didn’t care if I looked a little messy, girls always worry about that frivolous stuff but guys don’t care. I wouldn’t have a chance for dinner? There’s a Subway. I wasn’t really feeling my best after a long day and would like to just sit by myself alone? That’s a stupid reason not to go on a date, we would have fun.

I was so tempted to blurt out “alright, you win! I will go on a date that I clearly have no interest in, because you have argued me into a corner. I’m sure we will have a fantastic time.”

Sharculese
10 years ago

throwing in my prediction- were gonna here a lot about ‘creep shaming’ in the next couple of days

filetofswedishfish
10 years ago

“As a side note, haven’t we all gotten that letter at some point in our dating lives?”

Ah gawd. My entire stint on OKCupid!

Also, I got a few messages via OKCupid that pushed the 1600 word limit of the personal messaging system there. They were all as verbose and repetitive. Circular and entitled. If I go off just the internets, this attitude is upsettingly widespread.

Also, before I get accused of being a FCUCK APHLA WMOYNYMUM B1THCH!: I messaged quite a few dudes myself who turned me down. Funny how humans have preferences, I managed to happily move on with my life mere seconds after reading the messages turning me down.

Xanthe
Xanthe
10 years ago

In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer.

And I’m the Queen of Denmark.

Well, I had tuition from Crown Princess Mary of Denmark’s father (as has anyone who’s done 2nd year maths at the University of Tasmania recently!)

nomadrover
nomadrover
10 years ago

The image that kept popping into my head as I read the letter (specifically because of the WAY it was written) was of an 11th grader trying to convince a girl to go to the prom w/ him.

Especially the part about both of them being at the philharmonic alone, so why not just go together?

Sad…creepy and sad. Hopefully she never runs across him again…and he stops google-stalking her.

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