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>Dating advice for “creeps” who don’t want to be creepy any more.

>

You don’t actually need to wear goggles.
So the other day we were talking here about how to have the hot sexes with someone who wants to have the hot sexes with you also. Lots of good advice in that thread, but none of it is very useful to guys sitting around at home with no one but Pamela Handerson willing to climb into bed with them. So how exactly does one find a special someone to have the sexes with  – especially if you’re one of those horny, socially awkward guys who tends to get labeled a “creep?

Well, wonder no more, because two of my favorite bloggers have some advice for you:

In a post on the Good Men Project Magazine, Clarisse Thorn sifts through the sexist garbage that permeates virtually all Pick-Up Artist (PUA) websites in search of some decent, ethical advice that can help socially awkward guys connect with women. As she puts it:

the current pickup artist subculture has a monopoly on effective advice for how to break down social interactions and talk to women. Not all of it works, but enough of it works that it draws guys in. As a pickup artist instructor once told me, “When I first found the community I was horrified by how sleazy and gross it is, but I had never had a girlfriend, and I told myself, ‘Dude, if you don’t learn this stuff you’re gonna die alone.’” 

I wouldn’t go so far as saying  that PUAs have a “monopoly” on good advice, but there are aspects of the basic PUA approach that do make sense, and do work. To oversimplify a bit, the PUA approach encourages men to do something that women have been doing for centuries if not millennia: playing hard to get. Yep, guys who don’t come across as desperate and clingy tend to do better with the ladies than guys who do. That one basic insight is worth a lot more than an e-book-full of idiotic “openers,” not to mention the sleazy sort of date-rapey shit that self-described PUAs like the gun-happy Gunwitchpreach. 

In any case, after offering a critique of some of the most obvious issues she has with PUAs, Clarisse links to a bunch of sites that she thinks can be genuinely helpful to awkward guys. Check it out.

Meanwhile, also on the Good Men Project, Amanda Marcotte – who is far less forgiving of PUAs than Clarisse — offers some specific advice for “self-described “nice guys” who claim they want non-sexist dating advice that works, but are forced to look to PUAs because there is no one else speaking to them. ”

Her first tip is golden: Dudes, if you want to score with a hot slut, stop thinking of women who enjoy sex as sluts. Or, as she puts it:

Be generous about women’s motivations. 

PUA communities spend a lot of time disparaging women with words like “shallow,” “gold-digger,” and “childish,” for having what they deem to be incorrect desires. But often, women’s choices make much more sense if you assume women date for fun and companionship, just as men do. If you don’t judge men for wanting sexiness, fun, and ego-boosting from women, then don’t judge women for wanting the same. 

For the rest of her advice, see here

On a completely unrelated topic: Are any of you having trouble posting comments here? If so, check your settings and make sure you’re allowing cookies from Blogger. If that doesn’t work, and you still have problems, send me an email. (See my profile for an email link.) Thanks!


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Ozymandias
11 years ago

>It's true that I was probably being a lot more snarky than I was accurate. In my defense, I was mocking trends I've seen in myself (I was a-c and e), my boyfriends and my close friends; sometimes people fucking up their own romantic lives gets me frustrated, and that leads to mockery.But you're right that there are a lot of problems that can keep you from getting laid besides these. Like depression and self-esteem issues! That would probably work, right there.

Ozymandias
11 years ago

>Oh, and "the pussy won't fall on my head while I'm playing xBox" is not mocking gamers– I know a lot of gamers with quite active and adventurous sex lives– but the sort of people who rarely leave the house or make an effort to have a social life, and then wonder why they can't get laid. Which is probably a symptom of social anxiety in and of itself, for that matter.

DarkSideCat
11 years ago

>@Ozy, a millionare is unbelievably rich, even by US standards. Only about 2% of households in the US have an income of over $200,000. As the low income student who went to a high tuition private university (my scholarships and grants made it about as cost efficient as other schools), the level of standard of living expected by these students was flat out astonishing. As a law student, I am living year round on the money that is supposed to support two semesters of living expenses and still living better than I ever have in my life. When you are sixteen are living on nothing but eggs and bread for two weeks and have loaned your mom the last of the money from your paycheck to take your little sister to the doctor, let me tell you that "old minivan and leftovers" are a big fucking deal.However, MRAs do not talk like people who have actually been poor. If you have ever lived in a poor (or even average income) neighborhood, you do not labor long under the illusion that women are housewives who do not work and sit back taking things easy. I went to one of those schools where half of the class is gone before graduation, and women and girls were always expected to work. Not having to work outside of the house was seen as a sign that one was "rich" or "getting ahead", not as a norm or general expectation. It is upperclass (or at least raised upperclass) men who think that women in general are or could be "shallow women who drive to the club in their BMW and wear $5000 clothes". The way MRAs talk about women sets off all sorts of class red flags for me. They come of as far more Bush pretending to be blue collar than they are actual poor people.Seriously though, I think MRAs define alpha as "any man with some degree of confidence who does not hate women and appears to be getting laid on a semi-regular basis". The notion of "hypergamy" is just a sort of sour grapes thing-i.e. "that fat guy with the thick glasses can't be that cool, she must be with him for his money."

DarkSideCat
11 years ago

>On second thought, the "does not hate women" might be a contested bit.

comet
11 years ago

>avpd0nmmng: PUA technique is mainly used to pick-up women in clubs that want a one-night-stand and it's obvious that many of these women will be flaky, shallow and gold-diggers. MRAs generalize that to all women.Been thinking about this lately and I'm starting to see it as the 'bad boy' thing in reverse. (And Bad Boy Cock Carousel aside, we all know SOME women do repeatedly go for, and go back to, abusive and disrespectful men – damned if I understand it either but there it is)But it's really common to see a guy saying 'I'm so sick of gold diggers/skanks/pampered princesses, why can't I meet a NICE girl, she doesn't have to be THAT hot', but then falls at the feet of the next blatant gold digger/skank/pampered princess who walks in flaunting the goods.You just think, I'm sorry you were treated that way, you (possibly) don't deserve it, but if it keeps happening then don't you think your taste in women is at least part of the problem? It's like all judge of character goes out of the window in the face of a pair of fake tits and some peroxide.Ozymandias: Liked the list but I do think you were being a bit harsh with b) and e), sorry! As a nervous, socially awkward woman (although not so much as I used to be) I have to say these things are not easy or fun to overcome for anyone. Rejection IS scary 😉

comet
11 years ago

>Ozy: And I typed that before I read your replies to David so I'll shut up now. :]

Ozymandias
11 years ago

>DarkSideCat: I agree that we're rich. I mean, I have friends who have been two weeks from homeless, ones who can't afford doctors when they're sick, people whose parents will never be able to retire until they're in the nursing home or dead, etc. I know I live pretty nicely: I have money for books and new clothes not from Goodwill when I want them, and I'm graduating from undergrad without debt (really inexpensive school, plus good scholarships). But it seems kind of weird to think "after twenty years, the house is paid off!" is the sort of lavish outlay that golddiggers dream of. I know the economy is fucked, but still.

Ella
11 years ago

>"Also, remember to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses."If we start min-maxing dating then we're going to end up just having shouting matches about it over the internet and never dating again because we'll be able to effortlessly beat every encounter and it just won't be fun anymore, because seriously who wants to just throw save-or-dies at things all day long.

Captain Bathrobe
11 years ago

>David Futrelle said… Oz, I think you're being a bit harsh. I went through a pretty depressed period in grad school. I smelled fine. I talked to people. I didn't play video games. I had female friends. I asked a number of them out (and went out on a lot of "platonic" dates with women who made it crystal clear they weren't interested in anything more). I was interested in a lot of different women, none of them bimbos. But my depression and self-esteem issues made it impossible to get a real date. I didn't blame women for it. I blamed myself. It wasn't until I dealt with the depression and got out of grad school that things started to change.Yeah, that pretty well describes my experience as well. A lot of these guys are depressed, discouraged, and have self-esteem issues. There's really no antidote for that but the long and difficult road to mental health and self-improvement.

cboye
11 years ago

>I too am skeptical of the alpha/beta male designations. They smack of overcategorization. The guys in my circles that I'd categorize as "alpha" are not people I would date–I liked them, for the most part, I just wouldn't have dated them. It's not really possible for there to be an "alpha" type that all women are attracted to.

Avicenna
11 years ago

>There is another issue with a lot of MRAs. They do seem to pack a higher number of racists in their midst. Well white nationalists, a lot of their arguments are about miscegenation and interbreeding. Women for the most part don't find that attractive. (Unless they are racists too).

Elizabeth
11 years ago

>They also are too narrow-why not some men being gamma, delta, omicron?I would date a theta.

triplanetary
11 years ago

>Would you date on omega man?Oh wait, Charlton Heston is dead. Plus he was pretty hard right-wing.

Lady Victoria von Syrus

>Sure, but it's not like you can tell ahead of time that the "Beta" male has those additional qualities. He needs to find the opportunity to demonstrate those qualities, and if he's "Beta" then by definition that is hard for him to doActually, not really. I mean, there's no way to really know for sure how someone is in bed without fucking them, but there are a lot of hints you can pick up on. Like seeing it cloud over, you can guess that rain is probably happening soon without having to wait for it to actually happen. * Guys who dress well. They don't have to be a clothes horse, but clean, well-fitting clothing that's reasonably stylish. This indicates that they are concerned with the outward appearance they give to the world, which means they care what people think about them. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a guy who is sloppily dressed or wearing misogynistic T-shirts seems like he's only interested in doing the bare minimum to get by. * Attentive listening. If I say something, and am reasonably sure that the guy was paying attention and processed it, this means he cares about what I have to say. This can be extrapolated to being reasonably sure that I can tell him what I want in bed and he will be as attentive and responsive. * If a guy spends all of our time together talking about himself, with few to no questions about myself, or directing the conversation back to him if I say something about myself, he's likely also going to be a selfish lover. If his language is laced with subtle misogyny, sexism, gender essentialism or slut-shaming, he will probably also not take me seriously as a lover. Instead, he's just treating me as a means to an end – he doesn't actually care about me as a person, just me as a potential pussy dispenser. * Displays of passion. Passion, not obsession. If a guy can talk with passion about something, then I can infer that he can also become passionate in other contexts as well. Now, this isn't a 100% accurate guide to who's good in bed and who's not. People can surprise you, especially about this. But if these 'beta' men start treating themselves with respect and treating the women around them like actual people (instead of some strange, alien species), they'll probably start to have more success with women.

Ella
11 years ago

>"I too am skeptical of the alpha/beta male designations. They smack of overcategorization. The guys in my circles that I'd categorize as "alpha" are not people I would date–I liked them, for the most part, I just wouldn't have dated them. It's not really possible for there to be an "alpha" type that all women are attracted to. "What's not to understand? Alpha means the bad guy in the made up anecdote, beta means the oppressed guy who you're supposed to sympathize with. It's very clear cut.

Hide and Seek
11 years ago

>"I too am skeptical of the alpha/beta male designations."From what I have read, group hierarchy in our closest animal relatives, chimpanzees and bonobos, doesn't really keep any of them from having sex with whomever they want . . . whenever they want. So, in theory, if we break down the moral objections to polygamy ladies would be more willing to have the fun sexy times with whomever we want . . . whenever we want.

SallyStrange
11 years ago

>Still waiting for my broke-ass boyfriend to get his shit together so's I can hypergamous my way into a whole lot of money, steal his sperm, and move to the French Riviera. I never thought it would take this long!

darkhorsewins
darkhorsewins
11 years ago

Here’s some advice that feminists would hate, but men would LOVE: http://manhood101.com/ebook.html

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