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cringe drama kings MGTOW

MGTOW: Men died in Stalingrad to defend men’s right to not pay for dinner on dates

Stalin would be so proud

Over on the MGTOW subreddit, the regulars are once again getting mad about the fact that some women expect men to pay for dinner on dates.

Someone called Intelligent_Ask713, who’s totally not a drama king or anything, urges his fellow men to look at all the sacrifices men have made over the centuries to protect the right of men not only to not pay on dates but to avoid dating at all.

I am starting to lose any sort of inclination to start a relationship and maintain it. I am not a court jester to dance to the tunes of Kweens, I am an independent male who values his sovereignty above everything else. There are men who died on the shores of Normandy and Gallipoli, in the freezing fields of Stalingrad, and the forest of Ardennes, because they knew the cost of freedom, and it's something that is taken for granted by most people of our generation, because they never had to struggle for their rights and hence don't value them. We men honour our ancestors, and vow to lead the way into the future. Gentlemen, we create the future, and for that alone, we should respect ourselves and each other as well.

I’m just sorry that he didn’t mention cavemen hunting the mammoth to feed their stay-at-cave wives.

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Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 year ago

Initially, I read this MGHOW as crediting world wars I and II for our modern civil freedom, which apparently crucially includes the freedom to live as a bachelor. The logical connection wasn’t obvious (to put it mildly), so it kept bugging me.

After a second or third reading, and some cues from the other commenters, it now seems he’s actually framing the MGTOW lifestyle or somesuch as brave civil rights resistance, likening himself and his comrades to soldiers in a war. Drama kings, indeed.

At the same time, he seems to acknowledge that most modern people (or even most modern men) have it pretty easy, so the concept of oppression and fight for freedom has been nearly forgotten. Muddled messaging, I’d say. Naturally, he brings up historical wars rather than any actual civil rights struggles, because the latter tend to be less dramatic, only familiar to people with slightly deeper understanding of history – and mostly showcasing the actual historical oppression and courage of women and non-white people.

Professor Fate
Professor Fate
1 year ago

Wanna bet this guy doesn’t want to wear a mask?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Lumipuna

At the same time, he seems to acknowledge that most modern people (or even most modern men) have it pretty easy, so the concept of oppression and fight for freedom has been nearly forgotten.

That seems to be a fairly common alt right framing: that most younger men aren’t going to war anymore or haven’t faced enough hardships in general, and therefore have gotten soft and insufficiently masculine. This appears to be a reframing of the idea that trauma or hardship builds character, but for a very specific definition of trauma that’s in line with their ideas of masculinity. Of course, usually the people saying this have never been to war themselves, as is common with many war hawks.

Last edited 1 year ago by Naglfar
Rob, not that Rob, the other Rob
Rob, not that Rob, the other Rob
1 year ago

Because as we all know, after the Red Army’s grueling victory at Stalingrad and subsequent routing of the Wehrmacht, Stalin rewarded them by dismantling the totalitarian Soviet system, and Russians lived on happily in their newfound and hard-won freedom.

Lizard_People_Operative
Lizard_People_Operative
1 year ago

[quote]I am an independent male who values his sovereignty above all else[/quote]Sovereign Citizen language from an angry (presumably white) man who refuses to take responsibility for anything and is prone to overblown dramatics? Who’d have thought it?

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 year ago

Naglfar:

This appears to be a reframing of the idea that trauma or hardship builds character, but for a very specific definition of trauma that’s in line with their ideas of masculinity.

Well put. Perhaps this MGHOW thinks fighting wars (or internet wars, as it is) is not fundamentally a response to perceived threat but rather a sacred tradition of men to actualize themselves.

On a related note:

Of course, I think I know who the MGTOWs actually would have sided with at Stalingrad.

I know what you mean. The author name-drops some battles generally prided by English-speaking nations, and it’s reasonable to assume he’s from the US or some other Allied nation. Then he mentions Stalingrad, not necessarily to identify with the Allies against the Axis, but to identify with a concept of Western (Anglo-German) civilization against Soviet Russia. This sort of inconsistency or historical confusion seems to be commonplace when the mainstream Anglo-American WWII narrative clashes with not only nazi fanboyism, but more general Western chauvinism and anti-communism.

Then again, taking sides might not even matter, if one sees war as purely drama and development of masculinity.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Lumipuna

Perhaps this MGHOW thinks fighting wars (or internet wars, as it is) is not fundamentally a response to perceived threat but rather a sacred tradition of men to actualize themselves.

That is likely what they believe, as war has historically often been presented in this light for the purposes of heroic narratives. In the modern day I would expect that less because photographs and video of war are widely available, making it easier to know the reality, but MGTOWs were never known for connection to reality.

This sort of inconsistency or historical confusion seems to be commonplace when the mainstream Anglo-American WWII narrative clashes with not only nazi fanboyism, but more general Western chauvinism and anti-communism.

It also shows up a lot in the United States re: the Civil War. So many people claim to be patriotic while flying the flag of a US enemy that attempted secession (the Confederacy), or praise members of the Confederate army as patriots when they attempted to destroy the US. I do not know if groups in other countries use the Confederate battle flag, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were some similarly ahistoric groups elsewhere.

epitome of incomrepehensibility

@Lumipuma, @Naglfar – thanks for the insights. Yes, I think he mentioned WW1 & WW2 battles together not because he doesn’t know the difference, but because they’re all examples of Men Being Manly Men (TM).

A bit of a stretch to go from that to “honour(ing) his ancestors” by making fun of women and, what, not paying for dates? So much honour. Such great sacrifice.

True, I was listening to Sabaton’s WW1 album when editing the latest chapter of my novel, but never did I say, “Okay, editing this is just like fighting in the trenches.” Because really!

OT, but I saw they took off YouTube comments on some of their songs. I’m not surprised, because YouTube is full of racist comments, but it’s kind of depressing. I’m sure the band itself isn’t perfect – e.g. the song about Francis Pegahmagabow was cool but the part about “invoking the spirits of the wind” might lean too much on the “Magical Native” stereotype – but what about them would make people write pro-Nazi stuff??

Gaaah, I’m getting distracted when I have more errands and writing to do. But someone mentioned Night Witches, so I’ll leave the link to a song here 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7NSUFDHFgg

Sheila Crosby
1 year ago

@Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy
Well that surprised me.

Although with hindsight, it shouldn’t have. By 1995 they were starting to say that the Nazis were left wing. It’s very telling that nobody came out with this stuff until until most of the generation that remembered the war had died.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sheila Crosby
Luzbelitx
1 year ago

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Only people who have never been in battle think it’s glamorous.

THIS

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)

“Historically, you’d have been dead in a ditch in the first five minutes, mate. Put there by your squadmates.”

AND THIS

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@epitome
Re: Sabaton
I’d guess anyone who thinks Sabaton are Nazis really wasn’t paying attention to the lyrics, since IIRC they have a bunch of songs about fighting against Nazis. Apparently it has been an issue for their PR, though, since one of their albums was banned in Germany because it mentioned Nazis (though the song is about fighting against them).

That said, I do acknowledge that as much as I love metal, there is a problem with Nazis in the scene, and that includes those who will deliberately or subconsciously convince themselves that bands agree with them even when they don’t. In addition, a lot of Nazis seem to think that all white people secretly agree with them, so they might have assumed that since the band members are European and white that they somehow agree.

Last edited 1 year ago by Naglfar
Tovius
Tovius
1 year ago

@Naglfar
The right has rarely shown itself capable of understanding song lyrics, so I would not be surprised.

.45
.45
1 year ago

@ Naglfar

Off the top of my head, I can think of three Sabaton songs that you could say cast the German military, and by extension Nazis, “in a good light.” Ghost Division, Bismarck, and Wolf Pack.

At no point do they praise Nazis or anything, more obsessed with military might and elan as per most of their songs, but as you say, if one came at things with an agenda…

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@.45
I’m not that familiar with their discography, so thank you for the additional info.

Last edited 1 year ago by Naglfar
Expose the Manosphere
Expose the Manosphere
1 year ago

The Manosphere is notorious for appropriating historical incidents. It doesn’t just attack women in the present, but also in the past. I came across a clip of one guy claiming Harriet Tubman is a fable and was only created in 1942 to appease Black women.

Fabe
Fabe
1 year ago

@.45
There is also ‘No bullets fly’. It tells the story of a german pilot who escorted a heavily damaged American bomber to safety

Last edited 1 year ago by Fabe
.45
.45
1 year ago

@ Fabe

Yeah, I never really liked that one. Good story behind it, but don’t care for the song itself.

Anywho, that sounds more like the kind of story Neo-Nazis or Nazi sympathizers would hold up as evidence that they are honorable and, coupled with cherry picked examples of Allied war crimes, have the moral high ground.

Last edited 1 year ago by .45
Fabe
Fabe
1 year ago

@.41

Anywho, that sounds more like the kind of story Neo-Nazis or Nazi sympathizers would hold up as evidence that they are honorable and, coupled with cherry picked examples of Allied war crimes, have the moral high ground.

yeah I was thinking the same thing.

Last edited 1 year ago by Fabe
TacticalProgressive
TacticalProgressive
1 year ago

Bit of a history buff tangent, but as far as Sabaton the only other remote song that presents the WW2 German perspective is Wehrmacht, which is a song that actually directly addresses the dubious image of the German Army at the time that actually makes an attempt to bring attention as to wither the soldiers of the German Army were tragic cogs forced to fight for an evil Fascist dictator of an evil political ideology and the system that benefit them, or if they were truly full of fanatical, murderous madmen… which the song seems to come to the conclusion of “a little of both”.

That being said Sabaton have always hated Nazi’s and never praised them, and their songs relating to Ghost Division, Bismarck, Wolf Pack and No Bullets Fly are all written with the intent of being historical ballad’s of battles, events and people of those historical events and wars. No Bullets Fly was itself the story of The Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident where Franz Stigler not only spared the ravaged and hole ridden B-17 piloted by Bomber Pilot Charlie Brown; but escorted it out of German held airspace to ensure the B-17 and it’s crew returned home. Considering that Franz doing this while in service to Nazi Germany’s Military at the time; would have been feasibly an assured death sentence should have any Nazi party hardliner found out. And yet he did so out of principle. But it was not, as some would assert as being “Nazi honor” (not even by the false assertions of the Nazi’s themselves). But rather it’s a case where a man, in the forced service to an evil, meglomanichal and implicitly murderous ideology in command of a nation and it’s military: managing to hold on to his humanity and his honor in spite of the honor-less evil he was forced to fight for. And to top it off: years long after this event; both men eventually managed to find one another and became friends and brothers up until their deaths.

Nazi’s that keep trying to appropriate Sabaton and their songs for their hateful agenda (and they have tried) are faced with an uphill battle given the band, most of it’s fans and the songs are fierce rejections of Nazism and such attempts by said Nazi’s being antithetical to what those songs stand for, as these songs are intended as historical Ballads. Especially given Sabaton once made a song, The Final Solution, that was written as a somber, lamenting balled in honor to the victims of the Holocaust and hamming hard the atrocity that it was. Or the fact that another song, The Last Battle, was a balled of the Battle of Castle Itter that valorized American soldiers and German soldiers who fought together to kill Nazi’s and free prisoners held captive by said Nazi’s.

Last edited 1 year ago by TacticalProgressive
epitome of incomrepehensibility

Re Sabaton: I definitely learned new stuff about their songs today, thanks!!

In addition, a lot of Nazis seem to think that all white people secretly agree with them

@Naglfar – yes, this! Were you there when David did a story on Taylor Swift & the Daily Stormer crowd? Basically they were trying to convince themselves she was a white supremacist.

At least YouTube wasn’t all like “you only like metal by white people” – the algorithm, apparently noticing I was listening to a non-American band, recommended songs by The HU and Bloodywood.

Actually, I can’t give YouTube credit for the 2nd one; it was someone in this comment section (Moggie maybe? thanks!) who linked to a song by the Snake Charmer where Bloodywood’s Raoul Kerr had a rap verse: link here.

@Tactical Progressive – “The Last Battle” sounds interesting! There was also “Uprising” about the Warsaw uprising in 1944.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@epitome

Were you there when David did a story on Taylor Swift & the Daily Stormer crowd? Basically they were trying to convince themselves she was a white supremacist.

Yes, I do recall that. IIRC they were rather upset to find out she wasn’t.

Viscaria, purveyor of briny slattern wine
Viscaria, purveyor of briny slattern wine
1 year ago

@Expose the Manosphere

I came across a clip of one guy claiming Harriet Tubman is a fable and was only created in 1942 to appease Black women.

I’m sorry, what? I had to read this twice for the ridiculousness to fully soak in. Wow.

TacticalProgressive
TacticalProgressive
1 year ago

@epitome of incomrepehensibility

There was also “Uprising” about the Warsaw uprising in 1944.

Oh yes, another good, historical balled type song by Sabaton that sung of those who fought against and killed Nazi’s in Poland.

I’m ashamed I almost forgotten that song as well: as it’s also one of my favorite songs by Sabaton. It was a very compelling moment in WW2 history. I even have the Steam Game Warsaw that actually has you play as a Polish resistance cell fighting in Warsaw durring the uprising in a very Darkest Dungeon-ish kind of style.. which is also full of very interesting and rich hisotry of the event and the people who participated in it.

Sumi
Sumi
1 year ago

What do these men actually want? Women to “stay in the kitchen” and be baby-making machines whilst also keeping their money away from them? Do they want “traditional” roles or not? A bunch of confused individuals indeed..

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