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Here’s the war you requested, Mr. President: Open thread

Iran has responded to Trump’s assassination-by-drone of Qasem Soleimani with a barrage of ballistic missiles aimed at two US air bases in Iraq. So I guess Trump has gotten the war he wanted. Fuck.

This tweet offers some insight into the question of just how prepared the administration is for the conflict Trump has triggered.

Open thread. No trolls.

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Lainy
Lainy
2 years ago

I can’t you guys, I’m gonna get drunk.

numerobis
numerobis
2 years ago

Independent of small minds lobbing rockets at each other, a plane crashed in Tehran, 170 on board, no survivors.

From videos it seems like an engine fire, which basically never happens anymore. It’s a fairly new plane.

Destination was Ukraine. So now there’s going to be conspiracists blaming the US, Iran, Ukraine *and* Russia.

One issue that’s going to come up investigating the crash is that it’s a Boeing, but because of sanctions, Boeing can’t help.

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

I’m still around as long as I am not called elsewhere (I hope this does not happen and being uncertain weather and when it happens stresses me out). Please drink in moderation.

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

@epitome of incomprehensibility
(probably for later)
To sum up a long argument: Please do what is good for you and since you also feel anxiety over communicating clearly please remember that you do not have to help everyone and do not have to be useful for everything.

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

Ok, now I am curious about this war-in-the-making. What do you think? Should I buy a subscription to warisboring.com or is there a hashtag to follow? I think I now have a good reason to be less reachable 🙂

(To avoid a misunderstanding: I am not looking forward to Trump going to war, I just have a very good reason to be stressed and ready drive and rush now and a good excuse why I was not stressed enough)

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

Stupid forum software. I said I was not happy that Trump is trying to start a war, just professionally excited because reports of war cause stress for other people who have accidents which in turn stress me and which they should, which explains why all my friends and family thought I was crazy for the last months.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 years ago

The most monstruous part of it for me : https://twitter.com/jennineak/status/1214720151205007360

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

Sorry, I cannot follow that twitter stream. Does someone have the time and energy to translate it so a 16 year old girl with my background could understand it (I’m 32 but I want to make sure I get it)?*

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

Here’s a research paper which will probably repay some careful reading (which I haven’t had time for yet): Revisiting Hiroshima in Iran: What Americans Really Think about Using Nuclear Weapons and Killing Noncombatants. This presented American test subjects with a hypothetical war scenario in Iran, involving killing large numbers of Iranian civilians in order to save a smaller number of US military lives. The first paragraph of the conclusion:

The novel survey experiments described in this article, by re-creating the trade-off between an atomic attack and the risk to the lives of U.S. soldiers that the United States faced at the end of World War II, produced many surprising findings. The U.S. public’s willingness to use nuclear weapons and deliberately kill foreign civilians has not changed as much since 1945 as many scholars have assumed. Contrary to the nuclear taboo thesis, a majority of Americans are willing to support the use of a nuclear weapon against an Iranian city killing 100,000 civilians. Contrary to the theory that Americans accept the noncombatant immunity norm, an even larger percentage of the U.S. public was willing to kill 100,000 Iranian civilians with conventional weapons. Women are as hawkish as men and, in some scenarios, are even more willing to support the use of nuclear weapons. Belief in the value of retribution is strongly related to support for using nuclear weapons, and a large majority of those who favor the use of nuclear weapons against Iran stated that the Iranian people bore some of the responsibility for that attack because they had not overthrown their government.

Some of the quotes from the respondents are chilling:

In an open-ended question, we asked respondents to write down the single most important reason they supported the air strike. The results revealed that utilitarian calculations about saving U.S. lives and ending the war promptly, as well as assigning culpability retrospectively, may have motivated subjects’ preference for the air strike. The majority of respondents in all three conditions who supported the bombing attack cited saving American lives or ending the war quickly as the reason for their support. That was not unexpected. What was surprising was the number of Americans who suggested that Iranian civilians were somehow culpable or were less than human. Justifications for the atomic attack that killed 100,000 Iranians included: “Hate the thought of being the only nation again to launch a nuclear strike, but they started it and we have lost enough lives”; and “Iran lied again about their nuclear facilities, launched an attack on an American warship that killed and hurt 4,000 Americans, and nothing short of complete and total victory over the lying savages would be acceptable to me.” Justifications for killing 2 million noncombatants included: “They were dancing in the streets and partying in favor of what happened to the twin towers”; “They hate us and they will violate any agreement”; “Islam is a religion of fanatics [and] they need to be taught a lesson”; “Air strike would wipe out any military opponents who will be hiding among civilians”; and “Kill the cockroaches.” Answers given by those who voted for the conventional attack that was estimated to kill 100,000 Iranian civilians included: “The article said that Iran attacked the U.S. ship first. The U.S. is not the aggressor here”; “Iran is ruled by radicals who have no regard for innocent life”; and “My first choice would be to decapitate the snake—wipe out the capital—wipe it clean—every living thing.”

So, I’m not hopeful.

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

Sounds bad. I’ve recently listened to some podcast from war college (no idea if that source is reliable) regarding the topic that gave me some hope, but I’m very thankful for the article

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

https://soundcloud.com/war_college/why-nuclear-war-looks

That was the podcast, I found the promise of the book that the author mentioned and the people he talked about reassuring

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

Heh, this probably explains why my educators were pushing utilitarianism so hard and where less thankful for affirmation than for criticism and found it a bit weird when I tried merging them (yet again).

I hope there is more interest in philosophy and less of an technology-and-energy-solve-all-problems attitude after this….

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe this numbers and I do not draw the apocalyptic conclusions you seem to do. Yes, Trump is the sort of populist who finds it funny to goof around with the atomic football and gets compared to the genocidal war victim from Germany but I think that there are a lot of good people in America who have at least read 1984 and feel like patriots.

Also, Japan was a third party in a war that Germany started and proved incredibly difficult to subdue because of the people resilience and fanatism which makes terrorism against America look, frankly, a bit more desperate and sad than, well, terroristic. Therefore, I cannot grasp why wild memes and dehumanisation (things that will fail once the net gets regulated better or when people stop being glued to their mobile devices) would cause dehumanisation on a level that justifies nuclear war.

Yes, people tend to have a short memory and tend to forget their misdeeds in order to see themselves as glorious heroes (just ask any comic book fan who thought their hobby would be safe from feminism forever) but I don’t believe that Americas people will fall for that cheap a trick. You are often seen as superficial, but few people are that dumb.

Maybe I’m just being jaded but if you see terror and terrorism as some sort of export-import relation then the terror offer is just rather pityfull and even though I do not know enough places and people in Amerika where I could live and pee thanks to being trans, I still think feel safe here.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 years ago

Okay, David can you ban the troll ? Too lany message to beignored, too dull to answer.

FlyByKiwi
FlyByKiwi
2 years ago

@Moggie well that’s incredibly frightening. I used to think people are generally good and caring but I’m having to re-think that these days. Having even the tiniest knowledge of what bombs did to Nagasaki and Hiroshima and being ok with a repeat seems beyond insane.

As for Trump’s actions so far, I do not know the legal situation in the US. Has he acted illegally and/ or unconstitutionally? What’s the remedy? Oh no – is the remedy also … (drum roll) … impeachment? Argghh

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

I mean it’s too late now to tell the youngsters to stop using the internet (the older generation loves to talk to the younger and does not care how annoying their presence is to them) and it cannot be done hypocritically. Parents will always intrude on the younger generation and well-meaning-liberals sometimes think too much like educators. It’s also too late to hotfix political problems that led to the Trump aera. But I just don’t get why a few numbers from an opinion poll should be more reliable than peoples feelings regarding their most elemental needs when all that is threatened is a vague feeling of safety, caused by media manipulation (compare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

hrmmm, please disregard that comment:

Heh, this probably explains why my educators were pushing utilitarianism so hard and where less thankful for affirmation than for criticism and found it a bit weird when I tried merging them (yet again).

It sounds weird.

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

@Ohlmann

Sorry if I cannot follow, but why do you think that impeachment would actually work in a sitation like this? Also, if you think that I am the troll here you cannot think that I would be ok with nuclear war.. I stated as much at the beginning. War is horrible. Partly nuclear war is a dangerous concept, nuclear war is probably apocalyptic. I even linked a ressource to this. I think that there is hope. I’m just looking forward to not be the crazy girl with the helper syndrome in case there are emergencies because of the news reports…… I hate this sort of misunderstandings, but they are very common.

Even if you hate me, please stay safe and do not give in to the hate

Tovius
Tovius
2 years ago

@FlyByKiwi

Oh no – is the remedy also … (drum roll) … impeachment? Argghh

Our founders really didn’t think this through, did they?

Lyzzy
Lyzzy
2 years ago

No wait, you use a different concept of troll…*sigh*. Look. I am not ok with war, nuclear or half-nuclear or otherwise. I’ve had some problems with feminists in the past (mainly the German ones) and I’ve had some personal issues with slightly schizoid thinking in the past. It’s ok to show me the door and I hope you can enjoy your safe space even if it is war-torn. Please delete my posts if you consider them in bad taste.

Just please oh please do not give in to the fear more than is necessary to get your job done, I’ve seen what happens then a countless times and have experienced it often enough.

Makroth
Makroth
2 years ago

Stop spamming.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
2 years ago

Great Googly Moogly. I was coming in here to apologize for using ALL THE WORDS in that other thread with Sapphire. I felt a bit guilty the whole time I was doing it, but Sapphire needed a response and it’s so hard to address the many, many issues popping up with brief lines.

So I addressed them all with what substance I could manage, and still felt bad about it and like it was long past time to give that thread some space for people other than me. Then I drop into this one and I’m like, Well, fuck.

I just don’t even know what to say. So I guess I’ll say sorry for drowning the other thread in words, and I promise I won’t do anything like that again for a good long time, and then shut up for a while.

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

@Crip Dyke, please don’t shut up! Obviously I speak only for myself, but I think your words are always valued.

TacticalProgressive
TacticalProgressive
2 years ago

Welp… looks like another hot war with more people dying and crying and suffering needlessly…. and for reasons even dumber and less defensible than ever. And Conservative’s and Tories think this is a great idea and Trump is “teh bestest”.

First he screws over veterans by ostensibly stealing funding to support them and putting to a nonsense wall, than stabs the Kurds in the Back in order to pull “Gulf War 2.0”, and now has kicked off yet another pointless, costly, destructive war by killing Qassim Soleimani (who was apparently an effective force in actually fighting ISIL), and just continuing being human boiler sludge.

I know I have the word ‘Tactical’ in my name: but I tire of wars and bloodshed made for bs reasons. And this is the most bs of bs.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 years ago

Yes, and just be sure of not burning out.

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