Categories
empathy deficit entitled babies irony alert reddit TERFs transmisogyny transphobia

“Gender Critical” Redditors attack a trans woman for the crime of wanting to be pretty

Presumably the TERFs will be picketing this store next

It’s PLEDGE DRIVE time again! If you’re a fan of this blog, please help fund its continued existence by clicking the button below. THANKS!

donate button

By David Futrelle

Over on the “Gender Critical” subreddit — the most popular hangout for Reddit’s Trans-Excluding Radical Feminists (TERFs) — the regulars are getting good and mad at an unnamed trans women because she said in a video that she wanted to look pretty.

“I just watched a video of a TIM explaining his reasons for facial feminization surgery,” wrote tihozitje, using the TERFy term TIM (Trans-Identified Male) for the trans woman in question

It all boils down to him wanting to look/feel “beautiful”.

The horror. A human being wanting to look attractive. Who ever heard of such an affront to reason and decency?

He said that he was always jealous of the fact that “girls got to look pretty” and that the possibilty of an insurance covering his ffs made him pursue transitioning.

No one transitions because their insurance covers it; they transition because they’re trans — though insurance coverage can determine what surgeries they can and cannot afford.

This man is objectively very unattractive as a man or as a “woman”.

So the crux of the argument is that ugly people should remain ugly, at least if they’re trans? That’s not a “critical” stance; it’s just sort of mean.

It just bothers me so much that these TIMs see womenhood as looking beautiful.

Someone wanting to look good after their transition does not mean that they “see womanhood as looking beautiful”

An “ugly” woman is as much of a woman as any other. I’m tired of having women’s value be determined by their looks.

Well, take that up with society; don’t take your resentment out on a trans woman who’s honestly just hoping to look a little more feminine.

All of this shows how TIMs are truly the biggest sexists.

Well, no. But it does show how petty and spiteful some TERFs can get when faced with a trans woman simply trying to live her best life.

Tihozitje’s post got nearly 250 upvotes and inspired dozens of comments, nearly all of them in agreement with her stance.

“TIMs are the ultimate misogynists,” wrote OmnibusToken..

“They reduce women to makeup and dresses and a ‘feeling,'” added feministdreamer. “We’re not human beings to them at all. It’s sickening.”

Another commenter suggested that trans women just accept that they’re really men — and improve their appearances by hitting the gym and maybe buying themselves a toupee.

Why don’t these stupid idiots work out, wear a toupee, take care of their skin, get some nice clothes and cologne, etc. if they want to look nice?

Still others took a certain pleasure in the notion that nothing this allegedly ugly trans woman could do would actually make her pretty in the end.

“[T]hese men will never be ‘pretty girls,”” wrote wehurrytoourdeaths.

Never. Ugly men in a dress are still ugly men. They will never pass.

Added Arie_r:

These men think that because they don’t look like the top 5% men that they’ll have better luck as women. In reality, if they do transition, they’ll be at the bottom of the barrel of women when it comes to dating because very few people are interested in dating trans people, let alone a non-passing TiM. They might more easily find sex from other males but they will not find a committed loving relationship with someone of their choosing.

Outside of the manosphere itself, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a movement so motivated by spite as “Gender Critical” feminism.

85 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Amtep
Amtep
2 years ago

I’ve never heard a real feminist say the phrase “objectively very unattractive”.

It seems they believe in patriarchal beauty standards so much that they’ve raised them to the status of objective truth.

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
2 years ago

These Redditers’ comments were upsetting to me more than most posted on WHTM, though that might be the time of night I read David’s post.

It’s led me to ask myself a question, what in the world is it like to be shackled to your sheer hatred of one (or multiple, knowing TERFs connections with the alt-right) group. Does their fear of trans* (thanks for the question about this, Naglfar and the explanation, Crip Dyke) people give them security in some way? I mean… obviously, no.

I’ve never lived like that in my life. I can’t empathize with irrational hatred like this.

Outside of the manosphere itself, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a movement so motivated by spite as “Gender Critical” feminism.

I haven’t met an actual TERF in person, or at least I don’t think I have. I wonder what happened to them to be so full of spite. It must have been the stuff of legends to “legitimize” their fear, discomfort and hatred.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@Amtep

I’ve never heard a real feminist say the phrase “objectively very unattractive”.

Nor have I. I’ve also never met a real feminist who was anywhere near this hateful, or a real feminist with this distorted of a view.

@NautaliaC

what in the world is it like to be shackled to your sheer hatred of one (or multiple, knowing TERFs connections with the alt-right) group. Does their fear of trans* (thanks for the question about this, Naglfar and the explanation, Crip Dyke) people give them security in some way? I mean… obviously, no.

I’ve wondered that myself, both in relation to TERFs and other groups. I’m guessing that by hating one or more groups it gives them something to blame their problems on so they don’t have to look for the real causes. It’s easier to blame a minority than to take on real causes.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
2 years ago

@Naglfar

I personally use the asterisk because to me it includes non-binary genders, too.

Sheila Crosby
Sheila Crosby
2 years ago

For what it’s worth, I think everyonbe should be able to spend as much or as little time and effort as they want on whatever appearance they want. Nobody of either sex or gender should have their arm twisted either way. That seems to me to be the ideal.

Hoo boy are we a long way away from that ideal, but I still think that’s what we should be aiming for.

It’s the TERFs that push the idea that butch looking women must be trans* and therefore “obviously” a threat, so they’re pushing cis and trans women into looking femme as much or more than the patriarchy does. I’m half expecting some of the splash damage to come my way. Not a huge deal compared to what other people suffer from it, I know, by it’s the direct opposite of what they say they want.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
2 years ago

@NautaliaC

They’re like some manosphereans.
They’ll act all polite and accepting, but post stuff like this when they get home.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@Universal Kami

I personally use the asterisk because to me it includes non-binary genders, too.

That’s another good reason to use it.

They’ll act all polite and accepting, but post stuff like this when they get home.

The TERFs I’ve had the misfortune of meeting were good enough at hiding it unless it came up in conversation, then they wouldn’t shut up about “TRAs” (how they refer to trans* activists to try to make them sound like MRAs) and how they think that trans* people endanger women and children. They also have an obsession with certain words. It varies, but “autogynephilic” is the current favorite.

@Sheila Crosby

It’s the TERFs that push the idea that butch looking women must be trans* and therefore “obviously” a threat, so they’re pushing cis and trans women into looking femme as much or more than the patriarchy does.

TERFs really do have it in for butch cis women. My guess is because the TERFs can’t tell their gender visually as easily. Of course, actual feminists would want women to be ok with looking all different ways, but as we’ve established TERFs are feminists about as much as Jordan Peterson is.

It’s also ironic that they say that women shouldn’t have to look a certain way, then get upset when women don’t look like they want.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
2 years ago

I recall a piece I read about southern European immigrants early in the 20th Century;. “they dress themselves, shave, learn English to the best of their limited ability. These [people] will never be Americans…”

The critical argument is hypocrisy. The trans woman is criticized because the “are-ness” of being a woman isn’t being met according to their standards, and her transition “reduces ‘woman’ to clothes, makeup, etc.”

The standards the critics tout LITERALLY reduce “woman” to genetic code and nothing else. (I guess if you’re genetic code isn’t specific enough, you just don’t exist at all, regardless of your presentation)

No, “being a woman” isn’t JUST a feeling, but that’s a much larger component than DNA

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

@SheilaCrosby

For what it’s worth, I think everyonbe should be able to spend as much or as little time and effort as they want on whatever appearance they want. Nobody of either sex or gender should have their arm twisted either way. That seems to me to be the ideal.

I agree, very much. I am realistic though and know that with what I do it’s not that simple because the beauty industry is all tied up with capitalism and I struggle knowing that like with the tips that I take and knowing that some wealthy women who are clients and rave over me are doing it in part because they see me as a symbol that can be used to implicitly force standards on others. But I also know what I believe and think myself and know there’s lots I can do to resist.

And then there’s parts of the beauty industry that people don’t usually think of when they talk about it like how in really good cosmetology school stylists take anatomy. It’s maybe not full anatomy like in medical school, ok, but I mean its real anatomy and physiology because they are supposed to be able to recognize things about a client’s hair or scalp that shows they should recommend they see their dermatologist or regular doctor. I mean they’re not diagnosing but it’s their responsibility to screen and think about health as well as aesthetics. I’m talking about our stylists at our salon and full disclosure I’m not one and just the hostess but I feel like this is another area where because it’s mostly women or a cis woman profession the serious part with knowledge and creativity is downplayed.

I’m not saying the beauty industry overall isn’t all tied up with patriarchy but just that there are other things I think about too. And we can resist our oppressors and would-be oppressors by defying their expectations.

I feel that way about my joy I get from the creative part of my BDSM/fetish social group because of the people who know me and see me at work where I am so attentive to everyone and they say “oh she’s so sweet” only the ones who really get me and what creativity means to me can get why I love femdom and how and why I love that expression in my BDSM social group. So this cis woman’s identity is as complex as any gender but I guess that makes sense because gender is individual and should be. But we have to fight against people who tell us that’s not true and instead they get to control it.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@Weird Eddie

The trans woman is criticized because the “are-ness” of being a woman isn’t being met according to their standards, and her transition “reduces ‘woman’ to clothes, makeup, etc.”

Another favorite TERF argument is that they claim not to care if people of any gender want to do activities of another gender, but I know that they don’t actually believe this. If they believed that, they wouldn’t get this upset when someone wants to be beautiful. I’ve seen TERFs throw tantrums over any sort of gender non conformity, often to a similar degree as religious fundamentalists. For example, when M. K. Fain had a meltdown over Sam Smith wearing a dress, claiming that it was ok to be gender non conforming, but that wearing said dress was “appropriating femininity”.

Speaking of which: Everyone remember that TERF or Incel Quiz? Some ideas for follow up quizzes that someone could make:
TERF or religious fundamentalist
TERF or neo-Nazi (optionally could replace white supremacist references to racial or ethnic groups with the ways TERFs refer to trans people, both TERFs and Nazis like to talk about “replacement” a lot, just by different groups)

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

Ahh, TERFs. I’ve tried to wrap my brain around the TERF mindset (probably not the most healthy of pastimes, I know) and there’s one TERF blog that I sometimes make use of toward that end. It’s not Meghan Murphy’s Feminist Current, but it’s a blog I came across when looking for progressive Canadian political blogs. The site progressiveblogs.ca keeps on its blogroll Dead Wild Roses, an Albertan TERF who reposts TERF screeds more often than she blogs about Albertan provincial politics. And the stuff she reposts is nearly always the same kind of condescending pseudo-intellectual nonsense that claims to “dismantle” the “ideology” of transactivists. It varies between dismissive and outright hostile, but it never fails to come off as post-hoc rationalizations of simple disgust meant to gatekeep the concept of “womanhood”. Red meat for the TERF base, essentially.

Gender is not one of those things that is meant to be gatekept. People sure try, of course, be they overly-macho dude-bro types or your textbook TERF. But just like the overly-macho guy admonishing “soy boys” from behind a keyboard, gatekeeping any gender comes off as a sign of deep insecurity, particularly with respect to one’s identity. If you’re going through life upset that other people are doing “gender” wrong, just seems self-defeating to me. People are going to experiment with gender. Some will confirm to the broad trends, some will do something all their own. That they put so much energy into their gatekeeping (I’ve seen the lengths they go) just flabbergasts me.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@Katamount

But just like the overly-macho guy admonishing “soy boys” from behind a keyboard, gatekeeping any gender comes off as a sign of deep insecurity, particularly with respect to one’s identity.

I do think many TERFs are insecure. Sort of like how the white nationalists are very insecure about themselves and project their insecurities onto their enemies. Of course, despite claiming to be feminists we all know that TERFs have more in common with toxically masculine keyboard warriors than any actual feminists.

I tried reading Meghan Murphy before. She contradicts herself a lot and makes weird leaps of logic, which makes her hard to follow. When I feel masochistic, I read TERF screeds and hone my skills at coming up with rebuttals. I’ve thought about making a blog where I rebut TERF arguments, but I don’t have the time. Though, there’s always the future.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 years ago

My husband said something about Caitlin Jenner, awhile back, that really disappointed me. This gist of his remark was, why did she wait until she was in her sixties to transition? My response was, why should her age be a concern? I don’t remember his answer word for word, but what it boiled down to was, Who’d want to be an elderly woman, why bother, what’s the point?

I found this insulting. I said, so, once a woman’s past a certain age, we are irrelevant and worthless? Sarcastically, I asked him to please let me know just when I’d reached that age, so I could bow out gracefully, with a suicide.

I was surprised and disappointed by his attitude. He’s for the most part tolerant and liberal.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@Dormousing_it
Did you point out that she transitioned in her 60s because she couldn’t transition earlier? A lot of people for social or financial reasons wait to transition.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
2 years ago

@Naglfar:

No, I didn’t. That did cross my mind. Maybe I should have mentioned it to him. I realize there are lots of reasons why people who want to, can’t

epitome of incomprehensibility

@Sylvia Daniella Foxglove –

FARTS have always been well known for their enormous cognitive dissonance. Facts will not dissuade them, and they will gladly bash any trans person for being ugly, and then say that beauty does not make someone a woman.

Well said. They’re just creating a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” scenario. I just wish we lived in a world where no one listened to them.

To the original:

It just bothers me so much that these TIMs see womenhood as looking beautiful.

This is the only part that seems to have some point to it, but it’s all twisted. Obviously, reducing women to their appearance is a problem – but not one that trans women started. And having a look you want for yourself doesn’t mean you want everyone to look like you.

What’s the fear here, that trans women are trying to influence cis women’s appearance? The horror!

Oh, oh, but it’s true! It’s already happening. One of the writers I follow on Twitter has (had?) glasses in a style I liked, and then I went out and bought similar ones.* She’s trans, I’m cis, so obviously there’s a conspiracy here and I’m being seduced back to patriarchal beauty standards by the enemy.

/s, of course, but is that really how TERFs think?? :C

*coloured metal frames, slight cat-eye, if anyone cares 🙂

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 years ago

They sure know how very well to hit on my insecurities. And I sort-of guess, the insecurities of a lot of people with gender dysphoria.

While that’s entirely a wild guess, I feel a bit of the same vibe from TERFs than from thoses super anti-gay preachers revealed later to have employed male prostitutes. In some way, I have the impressions thoses people drip with envy.

Then again, maybe I just detect the fact they are hypocritical haters. Hard to make the difference.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@EoI

Obviously, reducing women to their appearance is a problem – but not one that trans women started.

I might note, the TERFs seem to be doing quite a bit of reducing, both of cis women and trans* women based on appearance. For example, their insistence that cis women present very feminine and their outright disdain for butch women. Or the fact that their biggest attack strategy for the woman they are discussing was to make a bunch of ad hominem attacks calling her ugly. If they don’t want women to be reduced to their appearances, the TERFs all need to take a good look in the mirror to see where the problem lies.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

Like Dormousing_it

I said, so, once a woman’s past a certain age, we are irrelevant and worthless?

Good point and good way of challenging that.

Even if someone did try to rate worth on the basis of appearance and conventional attractiveness standards I know and see *lots* cis women including some in their 80s who more than exceed those standards. I know it’s true though that it’s easier because they are in priveleged socio-economic positions and can afford it.

But the problem anyway is rating people’s basic worth as humans by any appearance!! That so upsets me about a lot cis guy friends I have. They can’t get that even if I am absolutely not attracted to them sexually that doesn’t equate to me disvaluing them as people!! That’s where so much Niceguy “friendzone” bullshit comes from. So don’t get so fucking mad that I’m not “giving you a chance” you know? If you were really a friend you would know and see I value you for that.

steevee
steevee
2 years ago

I thought feminism was supposed to be about challenging narrow standards of beauty (and in some of its more radical forms, the idea of beauty itself.) So how can anyone claiming to be a radical feminist mock someone for looking “objectionably unattractive” and base so much of their idea of what it means to be a woman on whether someone fits their (narrower than most cis men’s) idea of how she’s supposed to look? Of course, TERFs are numb to their own hypocrisy.

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 years ago

@Dormousing_It

I don’t remember his answer word for word, but what it boiled down to was, Who’d want to be an elderly woman, why bother, what’s the point?

Sure and who’d want to be an elderly man? Mostly nobody really wants to be old, per se, it’s just better than the alternative.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@Dalillama
I don’t want to be old, but I’d much rather be an old person of the gender I identify as (an old woman) than the opposite.

Betrayer
Betrayer
2 years ago

In related news, Graham Linehan created his own little twitter clone where he can be a bigot without getting ratio’d, and one of the first things he did was mock a cis woman for getting plastic surgery and make hateful comments about her appearance and denigrating the very concept of cosmetic surgery.

Hopefully some of his TERF fans will begin to realize that Graham is a misogynist who learned he can get away with hating women if he mostly targets trans women. Some of them, however, were agreeing with him because TERFs are reactionaries who oppose bodily autonomy, even for cis people.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

@Betrayer
I saw that. It’ll have to compete with M. K. Fain’s Spinster, a spin-off of Gab for TERFs (and Nazis are welcome too, this being Gab). He actually mentioned Spinster in a release note.

Hopefully some of his TERF fans will begin to realize that Graham is a misogynist who learned he can get away with hating women if he mostly targets trans women.

I doubt that will happen. It would 1) require some degree of self-awareness, which TERFs lack, and 2) TERFs are hanging out with literal Nazis that they’ve bonded with over their hatred of trans* and gender nonconforming people. The fact that Nazis are misogynists doesn’t trouble them at all, so I doubt Graham’s misogyny will either. Plus, TERFs are misogynists as well. They hate cis women that don’t conform to their standards (such as butch women and women who don’t follow stereotypical gender expressions and roles).

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 years ago

(Continued)
Out of masochism, I checked Graham’s twitter feed. Of course, in order to cover up his true purpose he pulled the tactic of projection: claiming in the announcement that Twitter is run by “woman-hating incels.” Which, I would imagine, are going to be one of the main groups using his new clone, and with TERFs and Nazis.

I was going to see what he’s posting on Glindr, but it requires an account and I didn’t want to create one just to hate read TERF bullshit.

%d bloggers like this: