Hey, Chicago readers: If you can make it up to Evanston this Monday, I’ll be giving a talk titled “Escape from the Planet of the Friend Zone,” exploring some of the mythology of this dreaded place. The talk, like my talk two years ago, will be part of Northwestern’s Annual Sex Week, sponsored by the College Feminists. (The talk itself is cosponsored by NU’s Men Against Rape and Sexual Assault.)
It’s at 7 PM in Kresge Hall 4365, which is on the Southern end of campus, near “the rock.” (Here’s a map.) If you’re taking the el, get off at the Foster stop and head east; then a little ways south when you hit campus. I’ll check about parking for non-students and provide details later.
The last time I gave a talk during Northwestern’s Sex Week, some MRAs got a little overexcited and started making up things about what they assumed my talk was about. (They were wrong.) So, just to make clear: I will not be teaching impressionable college students “how to have good sex,” except insofar as I will be talking about how sexist and self-defeating the concept of the Friend Zone is, which means it’s possible that some dude could attend the lecture and decide to stop whining about getting stuck in the Friend Zone, and thus improve his romantic and sexual prospects with that one simple step.
I haven’t finished writing the talk yet, so if any of you have any thoughts on the Friend Zone — or the closely related topic of the “nice guy” — let me know in the comments below.
I’m also curious about what role the concept of the Friend Zone plays in your everyday lives, so I’m going to spit out a bunch of questions that I may address in the talk and may ask the students as well. I’d be interested in your answers.
Have you ever been put in a situation that you or other people might describe as the Friend Zone? Whose fault do you think it was? Have you ever been accused of putting someone else in the Friend Zone? Did you find this insulting? Has someone else, through their own obsequiousness, put themselves in the Friend Zone with you?
Is the Friend Zone a male thing or are there a significant number of women and girls who find themselves friendzoned as well?
Does the notion of the Friend Zone grow out of male entitlement? Is it a fundamentally manipulative to try to pressure a woman into romance and sex? Or does it grow out of male awkwardness — the inherently difficult situation of shy or perhaps socially awkward guys who are still nonetheless expected to be the ones who pursue women rather than the other way around, as MRA types might argue?
When did the term start getting used? The concept is certainly not new, but I don’t think the term is that old. When did you all first start hearing it?
How can guys (or gals) get out of the Friend Zone?
Can a Friend Zone situation — by which I mean one in which one person is romantically interested and the other isn’t — be transformed into a real friendship, or will the different feelings/expectations of the two people make this impossible?
Alternately, can a Friend Zone situation turn into a real romance?
Is the Friend Zone really a useful concept at all? There are very few relationships — platonic, romantic or purely sexual — in which each partner feels the exact same way about the other. There are mismatches all the time. Shouldn’t we just learn to roll with it? Maybe the answer to the old When Harry Met Sally question — can a man be friends with a woman he’s attracted to? — is, “why the hell not?”
Epidemic of flaking?
Sounds like a disease of tree-bark.
I copped a Probable Creep on the way home tonight. I was at the tram stop and he came up sending off all the wrong vibes – he was walking way too purposefully toward me. Then he sat down, body turned my way, much too intense a look and said “How y’goin,” not quite like he knew me but definitely with the expectation of an answer. Do I think there was something awry? Definitely; there are a lot of drugged/otherwise troubled/homeless people in that area and he gave off that vibe. Did I give a shit if that’s what it was? Nope. My answer was “Away is how I’m going,” and I got up, left, and made sure to catch a different tram.
See, that’s thing the Oh But It’s Cruel To Guys Who Can’t Help It mob ignore: they are valuing a man’s potential hurt feelings (assuming he’s acting in good faith, hardly a given) over a woman’s safety. I don’t actually care if that bloke tonight felt wounded or didn’t get why I left or anything else. I didn’t want to talk to him; he read like trouble, even if that trouble was just being drawn into a conversation I didn’t want. Hell, Robert Redford could have sat down to chat and I wouldn’t have wanted to talk unless he had a job for me.
I’ve been on both sides of what nebulous idea of “The Friend Zone” suggests. Yeah, it’s not nice really liking someone who doesn’t see you as anything more than a friend. But you can’t help who you are attracted to. Or make them desire you.
It’s also very awkward knowing that someone likes you as more than a friend and not feeling the same way, especially if you genuinely care about them and enjoy their company. In the former case I backed way off, in the latter I made my feelings perfectly clear and tried not to give out mixed signals ( we were sharing a house at uni at the time so it wasn’t like we could avoid each other).
I suppose that I’m lucky in that ten years on I’m still friends with both blokes and they and I are happy with other people.
So Simon has found 1 article about a woman once who was a complete ass-hat and manipulated men to pay for all her meals. And that means that most women are manipulative ass-hats who just get lots of their meals from vulnerable men. Logic, how does that work again?
I cannot believe that David comment-zoned me. He must have known how much I wanted to be quoted in his lecture and he’s not just ignored that, he’s actually quoting another commenter. And I’ve been commenting on the blog for years now, with just great quotable comments. How could he do this to me? It’s so unfair and he’s so manipulative.
I’m just going off to sulk and whine all over the internetz, now.
titianblue wins the thread!
titanblue: Well, of course, that’s how all those bloggers are. They string helpless commenters along in order to leech witty quips off of them, even though they have no intention of ever making them co-authors of their next book or giving them 90% of the royalties.
See, this is why Nice Commenters finish last.
@titanblue. I can appreciate the sensitivity to peoples motivations on this blog.
I offer that regardless of what people here think of what I am saying, reading “women are far more interested …” As all women do x, or all women do a certain thing, or all women like to do a certain thing may reflect just as poorly on readers prejudices as my own. I suppose I have to choose my qualifiers much more carefully than others around here.
If you’d like to quote me, David, you certainly can.
And if you don’t, well, there’s still a pint of rum raisin ice cream in the freezer. *weeps quietly *
Recommendations for Fibinachi!
My areas of interest are European Medieval, Russian, Byzantine and some Asian so this list will reflect that:
Medieval European/Byzantine:
In the Wake of the Plague, Norman F. Cantor
1215: The Year of Magna Carta by Danny Danziger
Women in the Middle Ages by Frances Gies, this just in Medieval women were awesome.
Women in Purple by Judith Herrin, a cracking read about the ruling Empresses of Imperial Byzantium, introduces you to one of my favourite historical figures, Empress Theodora, who started out as an actress, exotic dancer and probably sex worker and became the mistress i the Emperor and then Empress.
Byzantium: The surprising life of a medieval empire by Judith Herrin, really good as an introduction to Byzantine history, very readable and engaging.
Byzantium and the Crusades by Jonathan Harriss
Russian:
Natasha’s Dance by Orlando Figes, a fabulous book on Russian cultural history, quite chunky but wonderfully readable and a brilliant way in to Russian culture and history in general.
Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore, looks at the closer circle around Stalin during his reign, both politically and his family his friends, both terrifying and fascinating.
Gulag by Anne Appelbaum, such an important book, but harrowing as anything, factor in time during reading to put it down and go and cry for a bit, trigger warnings all over the shop but fascinating and brilliantly written
Chinese:
The Opium War by Julia Lovell
Mao’s Great Famine by Frank Dikotter, a bit of a hard slog but a really important book that fully exposes the atrocities commited under Mao’s regime
South East Asia:
The Flaming Womb by Barbara Watson Andaya, an excellent history of women in SE Asia.
These are good, readable and fairly easy to get hold of, I can recommend more scholarly texts if you like, especially for medieval stuff, but these are better for lay readers.
@NewJim, ~Yep, that’s the way to make friends on here. Yep, must be that I’m badly prejudiced and oversensitive. Couldn’t possibly be that you came into a social justice blog with a sweeping generalisation about women. /snark
Thank you historophilia! Thank you!
Pull the other one, Jim, it has bells on.
No problem Fibinachi!
Oh and another thing about the “Friendzone”, I massively prefer to have been friends with someone for a while before dating them.
A lot of the time I don’t actually become attracted to someone until I’ve known and known them well for a while.
And while I haven’t actively done this, I would seriously consider, if I liked someone, but didn’t know them that well, just being friends with them for a while before I did anything.
The only people I want to date are the sort of people I also want to be friends with, if you can’t be my friend then I can’t date you.
Whenever I have tried dating someone that I wasn’t friends with before it has not worked out.
So maybe dudes whining about the “Friendzone” should consider this a little bit.
This way of dating is especially important to me because I am a survivor and I need to know that I can absolutely trust someone before entering a relationship with them and even before I became a survivor I still needed to know that a man was a safe and decent person before dating them.
I don’t want to speak for other women and other survivors, but I wouldn’t be surprised if others do the same for very similar reasons.
In this patriarchal world, men are a threat to me, and if I want to have relationships with men then I have to work out if they are safe people.
Because after all, if I enter a relationship and the guy is abusive, then I’ll be blamed by the sorts of shitbags who whine about the Friendzone for getting into a relationship with a “Douchebag” and I should have seen it coming!
It comes back to denying women sexual agency again. If we try and get to know a man before embarking on a relationship then we are evil “Friendzoners” but if we don’t and we enter a relationship with a man who turns out to be abusive then it’s our fault for choosing the “Douchebag” over the “Nice Guy”.
Reading “women are like this” as “all women are like this” reflects on the READERS’ prejudices? No.
When I want to know something about myself I always ask a stranger on the internet. Obviously they’d know better than I would, right?
@historophilia:
For reference later on, if you have scholarly texty things as well, I’d love those too. Then I have something to get to bit by bit as well.
But again, thank you.
You learn a lot reading manboobz, from knitting to bra sizes to coding multiple layer animation scenes in css to, I guess, the history of the Byzantine Empire and the Opium wars (Once I get there)
@thread:
Don’t worry, titianblue, David just needs some time, I’m sure then he’ll come to see what a fantastic, quotable commentator you are.
Or, if you’re interested, you can buy my Fibinachian Guide to Fibbing Free Of the Fearful
FrienComment-Zone. For only 3 easy payments of two snorkels and a book reference on the social organization of bees you, too, can learn the mighty arts of:Passive-aggressively layering your comments with snide remarks about David’s quotation policy, and how he only tends to quote from Bad Pens
Turning the blog author control switch on David himself! Now, normally, the blog owner has all the power in a relationship, but with my easy patented system you can learn to emotionally manipulate someone’s percieved notions of dependence by destroying their ability to think for themselves! Hurrah!
The Ten Steps You Must Take Right Now (And The Five Things You Are Doing Wrong) in orer to be quoted by others and have your blockquotes resound through the blogosphere
The surprising secret of
alphaqouted posters and how theirfashion-sensewritten words tell you about their personalitiesAnd if you strike now, we’ll even throw in the smash-hit e-book: “How Not To Be Christian McQueen“, giving you all the tips you need in your life to never be Christian McQueen at any point what-so-ever! It’s the must read book for any person who desires to never become a false puppet propped up by bad ideas and stuffed full of inane goals! And it can be yours, ABSOLUTELY FREE!
Go! Go now! Bury your flippers and jar full of Apis mellifera underneath the branches of the Whispering Tree, and, then, once hive of flipper bees sprout from the earth, turn their delicious products into qoutable honey, smear it on a seagull and attach to that seagull the two snorkels and book on social insect organization that you’ve decided will let you break free of the comment-zone FOREVER*!
*This product is meant for educational purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental, accidental or the work of the Association for the Post Mortem Challenged down the street. This is work in progress and subject to change. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Apply only to affected area. May be too intense for some viewers. If condition worsens, discontinue use and consult a physician, priest, psychologist or nebolous beings from beyond the veil of space and time what lurks in the dimensions between. Please remain seated until the ride has come to a complete stop. Many suitcases look alike. No breakfast after 10 am. Post office will not deliver without postage, address and a sacrifial lamb offered to the Watcher Beyond The Treshold. Do not write below this line. Falling rock. Sign here without admitting guilt, fear, anxiety or where the bodies have most recently been buried. No alcohol, dogs, or horses, nor rain, sleet or snow. Preferable no squatters from Dimensional Nexus Lothat132. Do not fold, spindle, mutilate, light on fire, expose to sunlight, dose in the fluids of the Unmentionable, eat with spinach, toss into the sun, expose to precocious children or offer as a reward for a service well-performed by a questionable character of an ethically challenged bent. No transfers issued until the bus comes to a complete stop. This page left intentionally blank. I just work here. Transmission of the information is not intended to create, and receipt does not constitute, an attorney-client relationship, Einstein-Rosen bridge, safe holding pen for hellhounds, yeth-hounds, hound-hounds, skull-hounds or ghost bees. Internet subscribers and online readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel, a qualified para-psychologist and a full suite of mercenaries with non-disclosed nationalities and itchy trigger fingers. Use at your own risk. No bills over $20 after dark, after a rain of blood or on days where the receptionist is upside down.Customer voluntarily assumes all risks, known and unknown, unforeseen, foreseen, predictable, unpredictable or caused by beings of malicious and malificient intent creeping through the cracks of creation or of any injury, however caused, even if caused in whole or in part by the action, inaction, or negligence of any party, to the full extent allowed by Argonian law. This supersedes all previous notices, even those delivered by a licensed clairvoyant.
@ Fibinachi
I. Read. The. Whole. Thing.
Would it be inappropriate for me to confess my undying love for your wit?
@fromafar
Hey, now. There’s a line. No cutting.
Wait, wait! Fibinachi is Danish (?). I really like danishes. I think that puts me first in line to be friendzoned!
Fibinachi?
You are amazing. I just died laughing, in the figurative sense. It was close to literal, though!
HAHAHAHAHA. No.
Dave, can you supply an itemized list explaining your choice to comment zone titianblue? Because I don’t see how she did anything wrong. If you can’t fully explain why you have chosen to reject someone who is so nice I kinda think you should use her comments.
There have been a couple of times I’ve “friend-zoned” a guy and had mutual friends, male and female, plead with me on his behalf. Why won’t I date this person? What was his specific failing that is preventing me from dating him? “I’m not interested” was not a compelling enough explanation, I guess.
If it’s any consolation, titianblue, I quoted you in a draft version of the talk, then took your quote out because even though I liked it the talk was too long. Oh wait, that makes it worse, doesn’t it?
You’re stringing me along, aren’t you, David?
@titianblue, Next David will call you to cry on your shoulder because someone else he really wanted to quote wouldn’t give him permission, and then to add insult to injury he’ll ask you to help him move but won’t even buy you a pizza or anything to thank you.