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>MGTOW: Myth and reality

>Today, two videos.

The first, how Men Going Their Own Way see themselves. (Indeed, I found the video on MGTOWforums.com, billed as “MGTOW explained in 33 seconds … .”)

The second presents what I think is probably a much more accurate picture of the typical MGTOWer.

I know, cheap shot. Did I ever say I was above cheap shots?

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Aunti Disestablishmentarian

>I'm quite entranced by Jilted John. There's more, it seems:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_FellowsSo… thanks?

David Futrelle
11 years ago

>He is kind of a charmer. And I hadn't realized his song had been produced by the legendary Martin Hannett. I looked up some of Fellows' later work as "John Shuttleworth." Not, alas, all that funny:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ufc8bnD8DE

Bedelia Bloodyknuckle
11 years ago

>Oh the Brits…He almost looks like the young Michael Palin….Almost….

Kirbywarp
11 years ago

>… I'm a little confused here.So you're saying that MRAs think they are handsome but ignorant douchebags, while they actually are dorky tone-deaf brits? Actually, I can kinda see the resemblance.

Sam
Sam
11 years ago

>Excellent. I've been looking for more novelty tracks to throw into a party shuffle, and this'll go great alongside "United States of Whatever!"

*THASF*
11 years ago

>That song gave me happy legs! πŸ˜€

*THASF*
11 years ago

>Well, I mean the lyrical content was more than a little questionable, but the beat, you know?

Ion
Ion
11 years ago

>The Clint Eastwood bit reminds me of this quote from The Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar:β€œIf a young man gets married, starts a family, and spends the rest of his life working at a soul-destroying job, he is held up as an example of virtue and responsibility. The other type of man, living only for himself, working only for himself, doing first one thing and then another simply because he enjoys it and because he has to keep only himself, sleeping where and when he wants, and facing woman when he meets her, on equal terms and not as one of a million slaves, is rejected by society. The free, unshackled man has no place in its midst.”I dunno, I kind of agree with that. What's funny is that if a woman decides to go her own way, living life on her own terms, she is hailed as "strong" and "independent". But if a man does it, he must be a loser. Of course, part of going one's own way is that you wouldn't care what others think of you, so I guess it works out.

Kirbywarp
11 years ago

>Ion:Course I disagree with the quote, but lets go down to your next bit."What's funny is that if a woman decides to go her own way, living life on her own terms, she is hailed as "strong" and "independent". But if a man does it, he must be a loser."The only reason why this statement has a grain of truth is because we live in a society where the number of women a man gets is a measure of his worth. Its not that a man that doesn't marry is a loser, its a man that doesn't attempt to fuck every woman he sees.The woman is heralded as "strong" and "independant" not because she doesn't seek male companionship, but because in the past a measure of a woman's worth was how good of a husband she could get. Thus the feminist movement saught to reverse the notion that a woman could only be useful underneath a husband by glorifying those who saught to live alone.In other words, a patriarchal society causes these two problems, not one that adopts feminist ideals.

Ion
Ion
11 years ago

>Kirbywarp, you claim that the patriarchy refers to men who 'don't attempt to fuck every woman they see' as losers. That may be true, but that isn't quite the example pictured here. All Clint Eastwood's character said was basically that he didn't want to get married, and would rather have women's companionship when he felt like it, and not when he didn't. In your own words, you then implied that he was a "handsome but ignorant douchebag". How so?And if it had been a woman claiming the same thing – that she didn't want to get married and preferred relationships with men on her own terms – would your reaction have been the same?

Kirbywarp
11 years ago

>Ion:You cleverly forgot the rest of the speech, and I quote:"To ask me to quit drinking? Quit gambling, to save my money, and to bitch about her aches and pains all day? No thanks."In other words, women are nothing but nags who complain all day. Interesting that you hear only what you want to hear.

Ion
Ion
11 years ago

>I didn't forget it, I just interpreted it differently. I thought he said that rather than being stuck with one woman who might nag him all day, he would rather have relationships on his own terms. But apparently he is not allowed to make this choice, or at least he is condemned for it. Interesting that you interpret everything to put the man in the worst possible light.And my question still stands – if it'd been a woman delivering the speech, something along the lines of "I don't need a man to whine and get jealous and clingy and bitch about his problems", would you have had the same response? Or would there have been high-fives and cries of "you go girl!" from the feminist community?

Kirbywarp
11 years ago

>You certainly did interpret it differently, Ion. :PTo answer your question, I would have pretty much the same reaction (the original statement was stretched a bit for comedic affect, sorry to see you didn't pick up on this). Sadly I can't speak for everyone else, you'll have to ask them.On interpretation, you must realize I'm not criticizing the character because he doesn't want to marry, and I'm reasonably sure no one here would either. Its his view of women that is wrong, and is what I'm criticising.For the MRM, I'm also reasonably sure no one here would have a problem if MRAs just happened to not want to be tied down. Its their narrow and frankly horrendous notions of women that is the issue. Saying that feminists complain about men who don't fit social norms is like saying they hate racists because they wouldn't choose to marry someone black.

DarkSideCat
11 years ago

>You think a fucking nun would get the whole not marrying thing. Damn, there is a lot of just plain terrible writing in westerns, isn't there? Of course, the only western allowed in our house when I was little was Young Guns, so I found that one out rather late in the game.Also, Jilted John is the more attractive of these two guys, by a long shot.

Kirbywarp
11 years ago

>DarkSideCat:Its worse than that, actually. According to the plot:**SPOILER**She's actually a prostitute. She of all people should understand not marrying. :P**END SPOILER**

Ion
Ion
11 years ago

>Saying that feminists complain about men who don't fit social norms is like saying they hate racists because they wouldn't choose to marry someone black.I'm pretty sure that in this politically correct age, someone claiming he didn't want to marry someone black would be attacked and called a racist bigot by at least some people, but I get your point.Wait, the nun is a prostitute? So did she give that up to become a nun, or is the costume part of her kinky act? πŸ™‚

Ion
Ion
11 years ago

>Also, I just noticed the nun is Shirley MacLaine. She was pretty cute back in the day.

DesertRose
11 years ago

>What's funny is that if a woman decides to go her own way, living life on her own terms, she is hailed as "strong" and "independent". But if a man does it, he must be a loser.Sure, until she's in her late twenties and suddenly everyone's nagging her. Then she turns thirty and it MUST have been because she couldn't land a man.

DesertRose
11 years ago

>There's a rape scene in that movie, that someone also posted downthread. So fucking disgusting. Reminded me of NWO asking why we talk about them here and can't just let them go their own way when they're not hurting anyone supposedly and it shouldn't be our business. Is he fucking kidding me? Advocating rape? When it gets to that point it sure the hell is my business. These men are no longer Schrodinger's rapist. If you're gonna go your own way, go your own fucking way.

DesertRose
11 years ago

>WTF youtube comments are worse. She "provoked" him. Yeah, she was fucking rude, and even slapped him across the face. So slap her back and keep walking!MGTOW are nothing but sexist desperate, pathetic douchecanoes.

Amused
11 years ago

>Ion: sorry, but you are constructing a straw(wo)man. I don't think the overwhelming majority of feminists are bothered by anyone's decision to remain single, in and of itself. Rather, it's the fact that MGTOW's dwell on how horrible women are and explain ad nauseam all the myriad things that women supposedly owe them, combined with the presumption that any women actually WANT to marry them — that's what leads to us to condemning and mocking them.What does it mean to have relationships on your own terms? To follow your own timing? To have a relationship because you WANT to, rather than because you HAVE to? Not binding yourself to someone you don't even like in order to validate yourself in the eyes of your officious relatives and neighbors? Or does it mean having a relationship that's 100% about YOU, your wants and your needs, with the other person merely being a slab of meat and a servant? Schopenhauer wrote: "To marry, is to halve one's rights and to double one's responsibilities." That's true of marriage for both men and women; the loss of freedom and autonomy is inescapable. I understand, and I think all reasonable people do too, that this is not for everyone. But there is a big difference between the justification being, on the one hand: "Look, I'm kind of a self-centered loner, I'm used to not having to answer to anyone for my personal choices, and I don't think I can give up that freedom and at the same time, be supportive of another person," and the classical proto-MGTOW justification, which is "These presumptuous broads want the marriage to be about US, whereas it should be about ME!" Being unwilling to get married in and of itself is a neutral thing; being unwilling to get married because you just want to take and never give is contemptible.So to answer your question, whether going her own way makes a woman strong and independent depends on the context. As others have pointed out, women are still expected to gauge their "value" by their marriage and living vicariously through their husband (Freud's "penis envy" in an nutshell). If you check out anti-feminist and faux-feminist women's blogs, you'll still see this idea, that a woman's role in marriage is to be a self-effacing servant and an accessory. Breaking away from that mold IS sign of strength and independence because the pressure to conform is extremely strong. If, on the other hand, she doesn't want to get married because she is insulted that most husbands would expect her to make some kind of effort to make the marriage pleasant for them, instead of submit to merely being used, then she's an egotistical bitch, and it's to men's benefit she doesn't want to get married. I really don't think men experience the same pressure to marry, have kids, and remain all their lives in a soulless job. Bachelors are generally high-fived by other men. And in any event, the perception is that if a man never got married, that's women's fault, because no woman was ever good enough for him. "Old maids", by contrast, are ridiculed and vilified, and the popular perception of a woman who never married is that there is something so wrong with her, she wasn't suitable for ANY man. The quote is a prime example of our core societal value that women must mold themselves to accommodate men — but not that men should mold themselves to accommodate women.

Kirbywarp
11 years ago

>Amused: tl;sr*Thanks for untangling this out a bit further, I find a lot of truth in your second paragraph.*too long; still read. πŸ˜›

zombie rotten mcdonald
11 years ago

>my only comment is that I kind of like the Jilted John song, but I suspect that is not true of MRAs or MGTOWs.

zombie rotten mcdonald
11 years ago

>OK, I lied. I REALLY like the JJ song.

The Apprentice
11 years ago

>Kinda makes me think of the Monks; "Nice Legs, Shame About Her Face."http://youtu.be/X7r5RYThiHMOr "I Ain't Gettin Any"http://youtu.be/ZvDVQ-1NSDw

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