Bif, such an ass!
Let’s take a quick break from all that gamer aggro to take a quick peek at the CreepyPM subreddit, where we find this lovely little Grindr exchange, posted by Jacob of rniraclewhip.tumblr.com, featuring a man with a strange question:
I think our questioner was just being kind here, pretending that he actually was asking about ass size. No, his question was actually a very clever literary reference that went over Jacob’s head but which I picked up right away because I am so very, very smart.
It’s a reference to a famous scene in Death of a Salesman. Biff Loman is telling his brother Happy about a job interview that didn’t quite go as planned.
BIFF (breathlessly): I did a terrible thing today, Hap. It’s been the strangest day I ever went through. I’m all numb, I swear.
HAPPY: You mean he wouldn’t see you?
BIFF: Well, I waited six hours for him, see? All day. Kept sending my name in. Even tried to date his secretary so she’d get me to him, but no soap.
HAPPY: Because you’re not showin’ the old confidence, Biff. He remembered you, didn’t he?
BIFF (stopping Happy with a gesture): Finally, about five o’clock, he comes out. Didn’t remember who I was or anything. I felt like such an idiot, Hap.
HAPPY: Did you tell him my Florida idea?
BIFF: He walked away. I saw him for one minute. I got so mad I could’ve torn the walls down! How the hell did I ever get the idea I was a salesman there? I even believed myself that I’d been a salesman for him! And then he gave me one look and — I realized what a ridiculous lie my whole life has been! We’ve been talking in a dream for fifteen years. I was a shipping clerk.
HAPPY: What’d you do?
BIFF (with great tension and wonder): Well, he left, see. And the secretary went out. I was all alone in the waiting room. I don’t know what came over me, Hap. The next thing I know I’m in his office — paneled walls, everything. I can’t explain it. I — Hap, I took his fountain pen.
HAPPY: (Angrily.) Is u ass, bif?
Is you ass, bif?
This is truly the question of our time.
EDIT: Ok, I changed the Death of a Salesman quote. Dammit, this dopey joke is funny to ME.
And I’d say therein lies your mistake. While it’s true that many men (quite likely the overwhelming majority that use it) use Grindr for hookups, that is not its sole purpose or the only way it can be used. So expecting a certain amount of decorum is not exactly unrealistic.
Also, I’d note that you’re playing into this idea that just because one may enjoy more casual sex one is not entitled to be treated a certain way — say as a person rather than merely as way for the other person to get their jollies.
No matter where I am, I have a right to set my boundaries and expectations on how I am to be treated.
I’m not seeing why being up for casual sex and actively seeking it out means that manners need to be abandoned, or that one has forfeited the right to be treated with respect.
“Is it a comedy?”
LOLOL!!!
No. sooooo deperesing.
@sparkly
”
I was lucky. We had to read The Crucible in high school instead of Death of a Salesman when we studied Arthur Miller. Still a heavy-handed allegory, though, but I enjoyed The Crucible and I’ve never been able to get into Death of a Salesman.”
We died both, and we saw a live performance of Crucible. here was topless dancing for the “witch ritual” scene, and several of he guys were really excited qboute that. Hehehe. Theire analysis papers were lousy, because all the3ye remembers were boooobs.
MCY: I was lucky. We had to read The Crucible in high school instead of Death of a Salesman when we studied Arthur Miller. Still a heavy-handed allegory, though, but I enjoyed The Crucible and I’ve never been able to get into Death of a Salesman.”
Suffer horribly and expire, filthy Yanks! A curse on your entire species! May you suffer boils and cankers, and may you all DIE HORRIBLY!!!!!!!!
(I had “Owls Do Cry” by Janet Frame inflicted on me by my school system – to this day I suffer hysterical illiteracy if I see red hair on an author’s photo…)
RE: Michael McG
going to other public our virtual spaces (swingers’ clubs or bathhouses; Squirt, Manhunt, etc.), and being offended by sexualized interactions is a bit like going to the mall and being offended commercialized behavior.
Enh, I would argue that there’s still a way to be DECENT about that. There’s a difference between, “Hey, would you like to do a thing?” and “COCK OR GTFO.” Jarred H said it better than I could.
Also, sometimes people go into a very sexual space just to learn and see if this is something they want to do, with no intention of getting sexy their first time. Being a dick to them is the easy way to insure they won’t ever come back. (Note: this was why I never actually dared go to a kink party. I kept hearing horror stories and doubted I’d be allowed to just sniff it out unmolested.)
No matter how casual and meaningless sex is, I will never sleep with someone who treats me like an object rather than a person. That’s the biggest turn off.
Especially not if they tell you to fuck off when you object.
Jarred H:
Eeek!
Say, did you get your Official We Hunted The Mammoth Welcome Package?
daintydougal:
Shakespeare’s definitely to be watched, not read.
LBT, yay for fairs and adventures! Glad you guys had such fun, it sounds like a great time out.
RE: Kittehs
Most definitely. And then I took Mac out for tacos, we had a lovely (well, not so much) adventure in public transit, and I gave him cuddles and love and my undivided attention because Saturday night really freaked him out. He is now doing a little better.
Which is good, because my brain has started itching again.
There’s a difference between expecting the treatment and accepting the treatment.
You have fun parsing out just how much crass behavior people should have to expect as the price of being on a dating site/app, dude, I’m going to go back to the other thread where at least it’s not the regulars going down that kind of path.
LBT, hugs to you and Mac and any of the kids who want them.
This (the OP) reminds me of the MAD magazine feature, Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions. Possible answers:
It can be seen from space.
Don’t move – it’s right behind you.
It is only wafer thin.
(seriously, though – that is crass.)
Jedi hugs @LBT!
Also – Shakespeare must be seen to be understood. But if you see it, you’ll probably like it. Mostly. Some of them were, actually, bleh.
One of them was a gore-fest. I wish I could remember which one, but it involved cannibalism. Like the horror-movie genre of the day. Plot was thin, violence was high, and it was a real mess to clean up the stage afterward.
Michelle: That would be Titus Andronicus.
@katz – YEAH, that’s the one. So, the horror genre is definitely not new.
I quite enjoyed the Shakespeare we did. But then we always saw a video of the play in question, and sometimes got taken to a theatre to watch one live. Also, we got fun ones. Macbeth. Othello. Henry IV 1&2.
Othello has some wonderful lines, making full use of lots of -isms, to incite violence.
“Now, now, even now. An old black ram is tupping your white ewe!”
Hello racism 🙂
(Paraphrased, haven’t read the play in decades)
I don’t think I’ve laughed this hard in my entire life. Bif you very much!
I liked some of the BBC’s Shakespeare series, like Twelfth Night with Felicity Kendall and Robert Hardy and Sinead Cusack. I remember Jon Finch in his young and lovely days as Henry IV in the Richard II-Henry IV plays.
My primary and high school set reading materials were pretty normal. Halfway Across the Galaxy and Turn Left seems to have some weird hold on Australian English curriculum but it was pretty good for what it was. Closest thing we have to The Giver except way lighter. Actually I think The Giver is studied a bit in Queensland.
Oh and To Kill a Mockingbird *insert joke about it not illuminating how to kill mockingbirds* here
Hmm, books I read for high school that I’d never bother with again … A Patch of Blue … Wake In Fright … Three Musketeers … Monkey Grip (I was so glad I got out of doing HSC and into RMIT’s orientation program: meant I didn’t have to go on reading that nauseating thing.)
@kittehserf: Nope, never received one, though I’ve sen them before, as I spent a long time lurking before posting. Thanks, though!
@LBT:
I can certainly understand this, and it really depends on the party organizers. Here, we have a pretty good BDSM club that holds monthly parties. I’ve been to a couple of their social events they hold at a local pub (you’re required to attend at least one publicly held social event before being invited to a party), but never made it to one of their parties. One of my first questions was whether I could just go to a party and converse. They assured me that it was okay and pointed out that their space is broken down into both lounging areas and dungeons, so I could even stick to the former if I wanted. I was also assured that politely (e.g. quietly, not leering, etc.) watching the scenes currently taking place in the play areas was welcome as well.
But as I said, that’s our local club, which is strongly dedicated to making people comfortable and upholding safety (they do a lot of educational work in addition to hosting parties). From what I understand, other place may not be so much.
I’ve been horrified by and had my boundaries violated at EVERY kink event I’ve attended in every community I’ve attended one in. I was feminist before but my foray into that….. subculture is what radicalised me. I became aware of the extent to which misogyny is present and acceptable in our supposedly progressive western culture through kink.
I keep being told “It’s totally comfortable and safe and respectful at our event/location” only to discover, no, it’s really not. Not for me and not for lots of other people.
I don’t assume anything about anyone based on what gets them off but if they’re an active participant in “the community” (god, it’s obnoxious the way so many of them refer to themselves) I become leery due to personal experience.
Yeah, implying that someone looking for casual sex doesn’t deserve manners or respect is essentially slut shaming.
So entering a space where the bodies of people are explicitly sexualized means that one shouldn’t expect one’s body to be sexualized?
I’m honestly confused as to why people are conflating entering sexualized spaces with consenting to have one’s boundaries violated. If someone else does or says something that one does not like about themone is perfectly within one’s rights to tell them fuck offand take further actions such as reporting to management work to law enforcement undesirable behavior continues. In fact, I will say that it is an assertion of one’s respect and self worth to do so.
Simultaneously, however, if one does not want comments such as “Do you have a nice ass?”–some things that I have been asked several times while cruising, one should not enter into spaces where such comments or questions are considered acceptable discourse.
Michael McG:
So entering into a sexualized space means that others are completely right and ok to comment upon your body in any negative way they see fit, and you don’t have a right to be insulted by negative comments about your body? That’s what’s happening in the OP.
No one’s said that. You seem to be heavily implying that if a person enters into a sexualized space then they shouldn’t be surprised or upset if their boundaries are violated, though.
And that is exactly what the man in the OP did. Bif guy asked an insulting question and the man in the OP told him that was none of his business. Then bif guy told him to “fuck off.” Told him to “fuck off” for enforcing his boundaries. Don’t see anything wrong with that there?
Regarding high school books – we read Ethan Frome. Gah. That is one grim book. None of us got it in any real way; we’d never even lived through a New England winter, much less the pain of a frustrated, dead-end life. I now sympathize with the teacher, but at the time it felt like emptying a crate full of excelsior with a pair of tweezers.
[blockquote]Simultaneously, however, if one does not want comments such as “Do you have a nice ass?”–some things that I have been asked several times while cruising, one should not enter into spaces where such comments or questions are considered acceptable discourse.[/blockquote]
So, when so many men seem to think it’s acceptable to catcall, should women never go out onto the street? Or onto the internet as well? Oh, or to school or work. Someone might see them gardening or something if they left the house…
Basically, being gay does not give someone the right to objectify potential partners.
Oh hey, my first blockquote monster!
…wait, that was the opposite of block quote monster.
Andiexist, try replacing your [brackets with <pointy things! Going in the appropriate direction, of course.
Thank you David for making me laugh harder than I have in months.
http://diylol.com/meme-generator/hamlet–2/memes/is-u-ass-bif-or-is-u-ass-no-bif
Could you kindly show me where that is a sensible interpretation of what I posted?
Look people who use hook-up apps and go to bathhouses our sex clubs–all things which I do–are seeking out explicitly sexualized space and can therefore expect more sexualized behavior from others using that space.
I would not welcome anyone cat calling me or grabbing my ass as I walked down the street. I don’t really know what I would do if it happened, but I certainly wouldn’t consider it appropriate general-public behavior. However, I would accept that type of interaction as part of the solicitation for sex in a bathhouse. What transpires afterwards could perfectly acceptably to include my telling the cat caller our ass grabber to go fuck himself our my fucking around with him.
The issue here is that being cat called or grabbed is not so transgressive of the social norms in the sexualized spaces I enter that it in itself constitutes harassment our assault. Continued unwanted comments or contact would most certainly comprise harassment/assault, but the explicit sexualization of the space renders interactions such as touching others’ genitals–which would otherwise be considered utterly inappropriate behaviors outside the space, at least provisionally acceptable.
Within the larger discussion of the OP, I was never objecting to how Yellow (bif?) responded to Blue (bif’s interlocutor): I see nothing worthy of criticism in the exchange at all. I was however trying to explain–now obviously and hopelessly unclearly–how Blue’s initial conduct might not be, as kittehserf put it, “brain breaking” in its social density.
I see my proofreading efforts were not as successful as I had hoped.
“[C]at caller our ass grabber” should read “cat caller or ass grabber”.
@Michael
I was attempting to illustrate how going off what people who do that sort of thing think is acceptable is not going to get good results.
So, here’s a more relevant comparison: By your logic, women who do not want to be harassed should not go to bars. People are capable of wanting respectful partners for casual sex. No matter what the particular subculture you are in is like, it is NEVER okay to harass someone or act like they are obligated to have sex with you. Period, end of story.
Any “that is what it is like” is just an illustration of “you know, we should really teach people how to behave with people they want to have sex with.”
@Michael McG
Then the social norms in those places need to change. Groping someone without their consent is sexual assault, no matter how sexualized a place is.
If I went to an orgy, I would expect to see people fucking there, but that does not mean that people can just start fucking me without my consent, now does it?
Michael, go read the OP again. When the man being asked if his ass is “biff” attempts to draw a boundary, the other guy tells him to fuck off. If you really don’t see why that makes the interaction not OK I’m not sure what else to try in terms of explaining why people find his behavior inappropriate.
Being in a sexualized space doesn’t mean that you’ve forfeited your right to draw boundaries, or that it’s OK for other people to chastise you for attempting to enforce them. People always retain the right to tell other people to knock it off, no matter how sexualized the space.
Just because a gay man is on grindr, it doesn’t make it ok to make your first question about his ass size.
At least if you have any hope of being able to tap said ass, because ( and I say this as a slutty person) even sluts have standards, alright?
Treat them with respect and kindness if you want some.
So is the objection to the guy who drew a boundary being told to fuck off? Or is objection to the ass-size question in the first place?
Because Myoo skipped directly from being at an orgy to being raped orgy all the way over being propositioned at an orgy which was the analog to what the situation was in the OP.
My point has always been that certain behaviors that are never acceptable in non-sexualized spaces (e.g.asking questions about a person’s body, touching others’ bodies, etc) might be acceptable and expected to occur in sexualized. Of course, the person being asked or touched had the right to refuse the question or touch, but I am disputing whether, the sexualized nature of the space, the question or touch is as wholly inappropriate as most posters insist they are.
@Michael McG
If you start off by groping a person, then that person can hardly refuse the touch, can they? They can complain about it, sure, but then they might get subjected to people telling them that it’s just “the way things are”, and that these are the “social norms” in these places, and if they don’t like it then they should get out.
Why is it the “social norm” to just go straight to asking about people’s body parts and groping, anyway? Why are the creepers the ones the social norms are catering to? Just because it’s “the way things are” doesn’t mean it’s the way things should be.
Maybe some of us just have higher expectations of people’s behaviour even in a sexualised context. At the very least the creep was being crass and disgusting in his approach, as the respondent made pretty clear. Creep was also chockfull of outraged entitlement, not an attitude likely to win friends, let alone sexual partners.
What the hell makes you think any of his behaviour was acceptable? Do you really think “sexualised context” means treating people like fucktoys is okay?
The thing is, Michael seems to be trying to put forward an argument that it’s generally agreed that this behavior is acceptable on Grindr. If that was true, though, this little snippet of conversation would never have ended up getting the attention that it has, and the second guy probably wouldn’t have objected to the question. So basically what he’s arguing is that people in those spaces who don’t like the more crass approaches need to shut up.
Sorry, Michael, but my sympathies are with the people who want to be able to complain about crass behavior without being told to shut up.