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MEMEDAY: Brilliant Strategy to Defeat Feminists by Asking if they Mean Black Men Too

Sometmes "gotchas" aren't really "gotchas" at all.
Sometimes “gotchas” aren’t really “gotchas” at all.

MEMEDAY continues with the pic below that I also found on the Twitters.

While not technically a “meme” per se, it’s one of those things that antifeminists like to pass around amongst themselves — and that no one outside their little world will really understand, largely because it makes no damn sense.

Ok, so, a couple of Channers are talking about the eeeeeevil Anita Sarkeesian:

The first delightful thing to point out about this little exchange — and I’m using the word “delightful” to mean the total and complete opposite of delightful — is that Anita’s haters apparently really think that her speeches, videos and whatnot are little more than than excuses to say bad things about men.

She might say something like, well, to pick a random example from a recent blog post of hers about the Netflix show Jessica Jones:

To its credit, as one critic observed, Jessica Jones conveys the horror of Jessica’s past without ever depicting it. In this way, it avoids sensationalizing sexual assault, acknowledges that trauma leaves a lasting impact on people, and relieves the audience of the burden of having to bear witness to the worst of what Jones has endured.

But what Anita’s haters apparently hear is something like this:

Men are bad. Blah Blah. Blah They are all a bunch of patriarchal poopyheads. Blah. They should be put in jail just for being men. Bla Blah. Did I mention I hate men? KILL ALL MEN.

The second delightful (see above) thing about this little screencap — and the one that prompted Mr. Zen to post that triumphant “REKT” — is that supposed racial “gotcha.”

Anita’s haters (and internet antifeminists generally) have such a poor understanding of the basics of intersectional feminism that they think they can trump anything an SJW might say by accusing them randomly of racism.

If she says bad things about men, ask if she means black men as well.

Well, that would kind of depend on what she said, wouldn’t it?

Some things are true of all men. Some things aren’t. Sometimes race makes a difference. Sometimes it doesn’t.

It’s certainly not racist to say, for example, that men generally benefit from unexamined privilege — at least if you acknowledge that this is not the whole story, and that other things (race, class, sexual orientation, and so forth) affect men in huge and complicated ways that can overshadow gender.

But the belief that feminists aren’t allowed — according to some imagined SJW rulebook — to include men of color in their analyses because that would be RACIST is a fairly common one amongst internet antifeminsts.

Take, for example, the case of one Dean Esmay — Twitter “activist” and former A Voice for Men managing editor. Several months back he posted a series of Tweets in which he essentially tried to argue that feminists who include men of color in their analyses are inherently racist.

He put it a bit more bluntly than that:

https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/616223240642408448?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Even aside from the jarring line about “their women” — suggesting that black women are rightfully the property of black men — this is a bizarre claim. Feminists aren’t the Klan. They don’t argue that black men are uniquely violent; they simply note that, yes, there are black men who rape and beat women — just as there are white men and indeed men of every complexion who do.

As Esmay sees it, his charge not only applies to white feminists allegedly throwing shade at black men. It also applies to black feminists who criticize black men in any way.

https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/616222039578296320?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

And black feminist men as well.

https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/616222290758373376?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

The weird thing about Esmay is that he doesn’t seem to be playing a game of “SJW gotcha” here; he seems to actually think he’s making some sort of rational argument.

Internet antifeminists are weird.

 

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sbel
sbel
6 years ago

@Frank Torpedo

I would not be able to disagree with you, because the Multiregional Hypothesis, is, in fact, a real and competitive theory.

A lot of people don’t realise it, but afaik that has basically been disproven. EJ (The Other One) explained why. Insistence that it could be true is strong indicator that the person talking is a racist who doesn’t care about the truth. But then, I repeat myself. What racist does care about the truth?

Anyway, while I grok your point, I feel I should make my drift more apparent: I am not only working off the Recent African Origin model, but also from a few specific points:

1.) The oldest anatomically modern human beings, or rather, their remains, were found in Africa – not a proto-human species. Real, functional, genuine human beings, as real as you, or I, or grandpa over there.

So I’m not really sure how Modern Africans are not the genesis of human beings, or, at least, directly related to it, unless there is some information I’m not privy to that you know. They are, for the most part, identical to the first fully developed human beings.

I don’t think you do grok my point. You seem to be saying that 1) humans evolved in Africa, 2) some humans left africa and changed, 3) but the humans that stayed in Africa stayed the same as the first humans, and 4) thus deserve credit for everything that any human has ever done.

I’m objecting to point 3 and 4. Species do not stop evolving. Modern Africans are just far from (and just as close to) the original humans as any other group of modern humans are. All modern humans came from common ancestors. There is no transitive property that makes modern Africans “the mothers and fathers of all humans,” or “the genesis of human beings.”

Also, what jupitaur said. They explained it much more clearly than I could.

You know, the Chinese like to brag about how they have 4,000 years of history;

Yeah. More people trying to claim credit for things their distant ancestors might have done. I have zero respect for that.

I am not implying that everyone who is not black is inferior; nor am I implying some kind of fucked-up reversal of the White Man’s Burden – that we are laboring under some word of Black Man’s Burden.

I’m glad you didn’t mean that, cuz “White Man’s Burden much?” was one of my first reactions to your original post.

sbel
sbel
6 years ago

Sbel’s post about how my ramblings made them so mad they can’t even see straight has kinda surprised me. I don’t see what’s so exceptionally disgusting and offensive about it, but it is what it is; you can’t win them all.

Also, you misunderstood my comment. I didn’t say I was too angry to see straight. I’ve learned that when I get upset about a post, it’s usually a combination of things, many of which are not the posters fault, and if I post while upset, I tend to overreact and say things that I don’t mean. So I try to avoid posting while I’m upset. Sometimes I’ll mention that, to avoid giving the impression that I agree with the post. I apologize for giving you a false impression, I clearly phrased my comment badly.

I do think your post was offensive, but not exceptionally so. I can detail my objections to your original post, if you want.

ColeYote
ColeYote
6 years ago

And yes here’s me a straight white male telling you, Woman of Color, that you’re an Aunt Jemimah if you’re a feminist.

He says that like being a straight white male makes him more credible in saying that.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
6 years ago

@sbel:
I was posting that in support of Frank. Apologies if I was unclear.

I’ve already teal deared a lot here, so let me do it once more. Apologies, everyone.

It is my understanding (although I’m happy to be called wrong) that when black Americans say “Africa” they mean it in a symbolic sense, a land where black people are not enslaved or discriminated against and where they were born free. This is a potent symbol for a people struggling for a sense of identity and history, and should be admired.

Earlier this year, in non-symbolic Africa, we had a rash of political violence in which groups of South Africans attacked and murdered Zimbabwean small business owners. A large number of South Africans responded with by condemning the violence but reiterating the discriminatory rhetoric that led to it: they disliked Zimbabwean immigration and saw the situation as a case of “lazy foreigners coming here and stealing our jobs” and therefore blamed the violence upon its victims. Another large number of South Africans responded by opening their hearts to the refugees and condemning the violence. This is a tragedy that one could imagine happening along any border between a rich and a poor country. All the people involved, of course, were black. (Shona for the Zimbabweans, mostly Zulu for the South Africans, neither of which should surprise anyone in the slightest.)

Clearly, there is a difference between “Africa”, the symbol of black Americans struggling to assert themselves as a people, and actual Africa, the place where human beings live and act just like all other human beings, with all the good and the bad that that implies. This often comes into the sharpest contrast when black American tourists come over to Africa to reconnect with their roots: I have no idea what it feels like from an American angle but it’s a rich source of comedy for Africans, especially given that the black Americans coming over are generally those who could afford the plane ticket.

Therefore, when Frank speaks of “Africa” and of black African people being the parents of all of humanity, I read it as a statement of inclusion and of fighting the narrative that says that black people are somehow different and inferior to the rest of humanity. It’s a powerful statement that makes me want to raise a fist in support of it. It’s hyperbole, yes, but hyperbole isn’t a bad thing if it points in the right direction.

If it sounds threatening, that’s probably not a bad thing either. White people (like myself) aren’t used to feeling threatened in a racial sense, and we could do with getting used to it so we don’t lash out as much.

Frank Torpedo
6 years ago

This often comes into the sharpest contrast when black American tourists come over to Africa to reconnect with their roots: I have no idea what it feels like from an American angle but it’s a rich source of comedy for Africans, especially given that the black Americans coming over are generally those who could afford the plane ticket.

I’ve heard a lot about this, hence why I don’t go along with the black Americans who change their name to something suitably African-sounding and wear African clothing.

The real Africans just have a giggle at that sort of behavior and thinking, but far be it from me to prevent other people from chasing their dreams, and that sort of thing.

Then there are the Africans who run long con games on gullible Black Americans who think that returning to Africa will solve all their problems (hint: it doesn’t) and have these weird “Back-to-Africa” cult-like organizations that are really weird and scary to behold.

Therefore, when Frank speaks of “Africa” and of black African people being the parents of all of humanity, I read it as a statement of inclusion and of fighting the narrative that says that black people are somehow different and inferior to the rest of humanity. It’s a powerful statement that makes me want to raise a fist in support of it. It’s hyperbole, yes, but hyperbole isn’t a bad thing if it points in the right direction.

That is, more or less, my bent in the original post. For what it’s worth, I was attempting to be poetic, but, apparently, it somehow ended up coming out like “Frank Torpedo’s Mein Kampf”, somewhere along the line. 😛

I am not implying that we’re more important than others.

For an analogy, I think it’s like building a 747, with the workers being each respective race, and the 747 being humanity’s achievements to date – the guy who rivets on the tail is as important as the guy who puts in the avionics, although, obviously, one came before the other – but if that tail doesn’t get riveted on, or the avionics installed, that jet’s not going anywhere. I suggested that we fulfill an integral place in the story of Mankind. That does not take away from anyone else’s achievements.

I’d just like to apologize to everyone in this thread for not being a very good Black Hitler. Sorry, everyone. 😛

I do not actually want Lebensraum, and my Black SS Stormtroopers are more likely to give you warm hugs and watch Frozen with you, instead of herding you all into concentration camps.

Also, the invasion of Poland is off the schedule, guys, I can’t make it today. I’ve got an appointment with my cardiologist.

@Sbel

You seem to be saying that 1) humans evolved in Africa, 2) some humans left africa and changed, 3) but the humans that stayed in Africa stayed the same as the first humans, and 4) thus deserve credit for everything that any human has ever done.

Actually, I was saying that the humans who stayed in Africa are similar to the original humans. It’d be idiotic of me to say that they’re a 1:1 replication of the first humans, or else they obviously wouldn’t be driving cars and using computers.

However, as I mentioned earlier, there are tribes in Africa that bear the same genetic markers as the first humans, which are not found in any other racial line, and, again, this does not confer a special power, or an inherent superiority. It just means they’re kinda like living fossils, such as the Coelocanth.

thus deserve credit for everything that any human has ever done.

I don’t see what is so exceptionally objectionable about this, really. You can dispute it if you like – disputes are entirely normal – but I doubt very much why you should find it offensive.

You are more than welcome to explain what you found offensive about my post, because if I have a tendency to write ‘Mein Kampfy Chair’ by accident, I want to stamp that tendency out.

A sort of final solution, if you will. 😛

sbel
sbel
6 years ago

@ EJ (The Other One)

I was posting that in support of Frank. Apologies if I was unclear.

I’m not sure I understand. I was arguing against the “Multiregional Hypothesis.” I thought you were too.

You said:

The study of mitochondrial DNA gives us what is, to my mind, pretty firm evidence supporting the idea of a recent African origin of humanity.

(“Recent” in this case means that h. sapiens developed to its modern stage in Africa before spreading out, displacing other hominids. This theory is in contrast to the older hypothesis that H. sapiens developed simultaneously in different regions of the world from those older hominids.)

….

From this we conclude that Africa is the home of humanity.

Isn’t that an argument against the “Multiregional Hypothesis?”

Josh
Josh
6 years ago

@Frank

I would say that the real thing is that for a lot of people, the whole “responsible for all man’s achievements” thing probably sounds too close in language to what racist white assholes say about all the achievements white people have made.

Personally I think you just accidentally really did give off a “reverse white man’s burden” vibe. I’m not saying it’s on purpose but… That really is how it reads.

sbel
sbel
6 years ago

Sorry for the lateness, shortness, and brusqueness of this response. Also, apologies if my post is incoherent, I’m trying to throw this together so that I can get to bed, so I’m not going to proofread it that carefully. Some shit has come up with the holidays, I don’t have the time or energy for this.

You repeatedly set up one race as the parent race. When you call group A the parent, you’re implicitly calling group B the child. A parent-child relationship is inherently unbalanced. That’s why it’s offensive when sexists set up Men as the parents and Women as children. I don’t see how it’s less offensive if A & B are races instead of genders. If someone put the white race in the parent role, it would be very much a case of White Man’s Burden. A more equal relationship would be siblings.

2ndly, you seem to be doing something that is routinely mocked on this site, the very thing that this site is named after. You seem to be claiming credit for a bunch of things you had nothing to do with. If you were claiming credit because you’re human, and humans did this, that would be fine. But you single out your race as deserving credit, by virtue of being the oldest race. That argument strongly implies that people of any younger race don’t deserve equal credit. I find that idea highly offensive.

You said that the “parent” race has a duty to help all their “child” races. a) again with the parent and child metaphors, and b) it implies that the “child” races have no responsibility to help each other, and c) that sounds so much like the White Man’s Burden.

You also keep saying stuff that sounds like modern Africans are more similar to our common ancestors than any other race is. That argument is making me extremely uncomfortable because it sounds very similar to a certain white supremacist argument. Some white supremacists claim that a) Humans evolved in Africa, b) some humans moved out of Africa and continued evolving, c) the humans who remained in Africa stopped evolving and stayed the same as our inferior ancestors, and d) that’s why people with recent African ancestry are inherently inferior. Of course, that “theory” is so full of obvious flaws that I shouldn’t even have to point them out, but I’ve heard it enough that I instantly disagree when someone suggests that modern Africans are very much like our common African ancestors.

You clarified in later posts that you didn’t mean some of those things. I know you said you believe that all races have a responsibility to each other, for instance. But I don’t think I’m wrong to say that your original post did imply those things, and I don’t think I’m wrong to say that I think your original post, taken by itself, was mildly offensive.

I’m sorry, I really need to stagger off to bed now. I hope have a nice holiday season / end of December.

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