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Imaginary feminists shut down debate with other imaginary feminists (allegedly) [UPDATE 2]

UPDATE: In a new post on his blog, Marshall explains what (he says) actually happened. See below for details.

UPDATE 2: AVFM says “Oops!” (See end of post.)

I just hope none of you were planning on attending the Great Vancouver All-MRA Debate on whether or not feminism has “gone too far.” Because the already strange story of this debate has taken an even stranger turn, which seems to involve a large degree of blatant lying from someone, or a bunch of someones, connected to the debate. Which, by the way, isn’t going to be happening, at least not any time soon.

A Voice for Men yesterday announced that the much ballyhooed debate would be “delayed due to outside interference.” The announcement told a dramatic tale:

Chris Marshall, a father’s rights activist and the manager of a Vancouver business where a scheduled debate addressing the question, “Has feminism gone too far?” reported that he has just been fired from his job, and escorted from the premises by Vancouver Police after 30 months of employment. The timing of Mr Marshal’s ejection comes 48 hours prior to that scheduled event.

Well, if Mr. Marshall’s alleged firing and the alleged visit from the police were indeed connected to his political activity, I guess you could call that “outside interference.”

But there is just one little problem with this story. On his blog, Chris Marshall claims to be the owner or co-owner of the car dealership that was going to hold the debate. Indeed, in one post he told this story of how his car lot came to be:

Three years ago I met a white guy named Robert Cortens. (another divorced dad) I told him my story and he said he wanted to lend me $250,000 to open up a car lot that we called CC Motors. We started with 80 cars and are now up to 200 cars in inventory.

We built this dealership with morals scruples and ethics and the concept that a good deal is when we are both happy. We now sell over 100 cars a month, most dealers sell 35 cars. We are now Vancouverʼs largest and most successful used car dealership.

So either he fired himself, and demanded that the police escort him off his own property, or someone is lying.

There are really only a couple of possibilities I can see, given the conflicting evidence out there:

1) Marshall is lying on his blog about owning or co-owning the lot – which seems unlikely, because he’s posted pictures of the lot festooned by banners and signs promoting his website and denouncing the “Lying Legal Horror Lawyers” that Marshall says are “using my son as a pawn for judicial extortion.”  You’d be hard pressed to find a car dealer who would let an employee, even a manager, put banners like this on his business. I think he must really be the owner or co-owner. [Edited to add: Also, as of 9/22/2012, the car dealership’s web page prominently promotes Marshall’s website; indeed, the biggest graphic on the page is not a picture of a car but of one of his father’s rights banners, and the link to his blog is in a bigger typeface than the link to the inventory of the dealership’s cars.]

2) Marshall wasn’t fired. He simply lied to the folks at AVFM about what happened, and they were stupid enough to believe him.

3) The AVFM dudes, realizing that no one was going to show up to watch MRAs debate themselves, have decided to cover up their own organizing ineptitude by simply making up this story, which, as usual, allows them to play the victim once again. They assumed that the MRA masses, both on AVFM or elsewhere, wouldn’t bother to fact check their story and would simply swallow it whole.

4) Marshall had some sort of falling-out with the co-owner of his business, and his removal from the property had something to do with that; AVFM simply took the opportunity to “delay” the debate and to insinuate with no proof that evil feminists were somehow behind it all.

[UPDATE: Apparently #4 is the correct answer. In a new post on his blog, Marshall explains his side of the story:

First, the investor in my  business CC Motors has take away my signing authority and the profits I have created for CC Motors. I have also been banned from the business I built from nothing to a success. I refused to make him a partner in the car business. He is no longer satisfied with the $48,000 a year he get’s for lending me $160,000.

Huh. No mention of feminists complaining about the debate. ]

AVFM seems to have gotten away with their insinuations once again. It goes without saying that the sycophants on AVFM bought the story. On Reddit, while a few commenters in the inevitable r/mensrights thread raised questions about AVFM’s nonsensical tale, most accepted it unquestioningly and  worked themselves into quite a tizzy about the terrible injustice of it all. A couple typical comments from the thread (click on the pics to see the quotes in context):

So if it is AVFM who is lying here, I suppose I should give them credit for another victory of their propaganda over the stubborn world of facts. Not that long ago, you may recall, they got away with claiming a mob of twenty or thirty people “wielding box cutters” had confronted JohnTheOther while postering in Vancouver, when JTO’s own video footage showed only a tiny handful of people taking down his posters. Meanwhile, the AVFMers keep insinuating that feminists shut down the original version of this debate, when according to the original organizer MRAs were at least partially (if not wholly) responsible. And now this.

Actually, even if somehow, magically, everyone is telling the truth about the events surrounding Mr. Marshall, it’s not clear why the debate would have to be “delayed.”  Despite the setback, most organizers would have just moved the event to a new location.  (It certainly wouldn’t be that hard to find a place. Given how many people would likely have shown up, they could probably hold it in a studio apartment, or a large shoe.)

Of all the stumbling blocks that might get in the way of this debate, I would think that the lack of an opposing side would have been a much more serious one – as the announcement notes in passing, no feminists have stepped forward to debate the AVFM crowd, Vancouver Division. Debating an imaginary opponent? Not a problem. Changing location? Impossible.

On AVFM, the person writing the announcement lets us know that Mr. Elam has been informed of the dastardly attack on free speech.

Paul Elam, when informed of these events remarked:

“Those who believe open discussion can be silenced by intimidation, and who may be patting themselves on the back should all be invited to attend the rescheduled debate which will be announced shortly on this site.”

Very slick, Paul, working a plug for a new debate into your entirely spontaneous response to Mr. Marshall’s alleged firing.

Oh, and the new debate, if it ever comes to fruition, will be based on a slightly different question. As the announcement explains:

[I]n light on the resistance among gender ideologues, and the established pattern of censorship, intimidation and threats against the original organizer, a revised premise for the debate is now under consideration.

“Is feminism a hate movement?”

This debate is never going to happen, is it? I wonder what they’ll blame next time. Feminist caribou?

EDITED TO ADD: The fellas at AVFM have now run a … I don’t know, but it looks sort of like a correction of some kind, atop their original post:

I guess it would be too much to expect them to offer an apology of sorts for all the imaginary feminists they pointed their giant A Voice for Men Foam Finger of Insinuation at in the original post.

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Nathan Hevenstone
9 years ago

It’s amazing how many incels don’t consider that possibility that their incel status might be their fault…

That was freeing for me, when I figured it out. It *was* actually me! The first step is admitting you have a problem…

Seriously…

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

That guy again? The one who thinks that his parents should be murdered because they haven’t found him a girlfriend?

PsychoDan
9 years ago

My favorite thing about his blog might be his definition of incel:

I consider involuntary celibacy to be the inablity to obtain romantic relationship or sex for 6 months or more.

Seriously? 6 months? How many people out there have not suffered through the apparently grand injustice of not getting laid for half a year?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
9 years ago

6 months is a dry spell, not a lifelong condition requiring government intervention and/or the murder of your parents.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

And all that crap about how people will be rage-filled/explode/whatever it is he’s claiming if they’re going without sex – ye gods. Of course, I’m quite sure it’s merely reaching-orgasm-in-someone’s-body, not actual, y’know, loving relationships, that he’s on about. Well, I was “incel” until my forties. Didn’t want to have sex with someone I didn’t love, and the person I love wasn’t available. Amazingly enough, I neither exploded, murdered my parents, whined on the internet that men in general were to blame, nor called for gummint intervention. I got on with all the other bits of my life that actually take up most of it – work, friends, interests, that sort of thing.

But then I don’t suppose women count as being incel (gods that’s a stupid word). We’re just vending machines after all.

Are these whackjobs Republicans or Libertarians, perchance? They sound like perfect examples of the “Small government! No taxes!” crowd whose idea of “small” means “small enough to fit in a vagina and to be used to micromanage women’s lives and reduce them to chattel.”

thenatfantastic
9 years ago

I’m all for mocking the “incel” twits, but weren’t that dude’s comments on here actually by someone using his name to conduct some kind of weird internet-hate campaign against him by saying shit like that?

I’m not sure if that sentence makes sense, I just woke up… The guy was called R. The comments were made using R’s name (and trying to use his details) so that if you searched his name on google, weird-ass ideas like this were what came up. But he didn’t write them, it was someone pretending to be him to harass him.

I’m just not sure it should be taken seriously.

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
9 years ago

@2-D Man:

Dude, I speak FLUENT Christianese. It barely helps with Owly. I also speak fluent Truther, which gives me a head start on paranoid conspiracies. But… he’s such a mish-mash of Angry Truther Christian Anti-Communist Sexist Racist that I really don’t think anybody but Owly speaks Owl.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
9 years ago

@howardb you think he’s a Truther? I had him pegged as an Infowarrior, but I haven’t been here as long as you. And of course, there are Truthers among Alex Jones’ tinhat army, so we could both be right…

howardbann1ster
howardbann1ster
9 years ago

He’s started in on how feminists brought tower 7 down with the force of our minds or something, yeah.

Historophilia
Historophilia
9 years ago

I really, really baffled by that incel blog.

Will somebody please explain to me exactly what he expects the government to do about people who are going through a dry patch? He doesn’t spell it out anywhere or even attempt to briefly.

He says that governments should help people “get a girlfriend”? But what the frumious bandersnatch does that actually mean?

What does he want? Government sponsored prostitutes or something?

He talks about how being an incel also means being able to form a romantic relationship as well as it just being about sex. And how in hell is the government supposed to do something about that?

The government cannot make people fancy you! Despite what tinfoil hat types might think, the government cannot control your brain!

So what does he want, some kind of government run dating agency or matchmaking service? Because unless he’s noticed, there are tonnes of dating sites and speed dating events already which aren’t state run and lots of people do meet sexual and romantic partners through those.

I really doubt that state run dating agency would be any more successful that matched.com for chrissake.

I also like the fact that as part of his “evidence” for the fact that involuntary celibacy is a terrible and damaging thing is that of a woman committing suicide, but then elsewhere he dismisses female involuntary celibacy as not being a problem because of “other options” whatever these may be.

I think my brain has died from the lack of logic.

Historophilia
Historophilia
9 years ago

Also in his most recent post on this suggests that sexual frustration is a cause of rape.

Errr no.

Yet another example of MRA’s being far more misandric than any Radfem.

emilygoddess
emilygoddess
9 years ago

@Historophilia if you have an evening to kill, most of the “government girlfriends for incels” wankery is here. It’s pretty funny, until it gets really creepy.

@Howardb that’s actually kind of hilarious.

wrath
wrath
9 years ago

Well, I don’t know how much sense does it make to comment here as I might be banned again, though I explained everything to David not once or twice but three times but here it goes…
I was banned for supposedly defaming another person because of the nickname I used. However, my posts had nothing to do with that person, nothing at all, and it was merely a login issue. My blog has nothing to do with that person either.

I support the idea that the government should create a dating service for which women would apply and get money to go on 30 dates with men who apply. They have every right to reject them – the only thing they applied on was dates.

It would be better than a dating site because on a dating site nobody is guaranteed a date and 90 percent of men struggle for dates with 10 percent of women.

If a woman finds a guy on her first or fifth or any date before all 30 dates are to occur she’d still get paid the full amount. She’d also be subsidized for make-up if she wants to.

Last time I was viciously attacked and strawmanned though I must admit I didn’t explain myself a lot and got distracted.

As for my last post on the blog, I was asking a simple question- would anybody feel safe in a world where nobody can get sex or kisses for 5 years?

I am not an MRA, like many of you thought. I also didn’t come here to spread hate.

cloudiah
9 years ago

Hey, Pervis is back. How’s this? We know about your blog. If we’re interested in discussing your issues, we’ll come visit. Now go away.

katz
9 years ago

Wrath, you’re the Governments Get Girlfriends guy? K, well, you’re going to get rebanned pronto (protip: banned means “never come back,” not “come back under a different name”) and if you really want to have a serious conversation here you shouldn’t have thrown a shitfit about how much you hate David, but you amuse me, so I’ll explain why your plan doesn’t work.

Because as long as the plan is optional, you can’t guarantee that women will sign up, and therefore you can’t, ipso facto, guarantee that you’ll get a date. For instance, 31 men might sign up and only 1 woman. Hey presto–somebody doesn’t get a date!

There are many other reasons why it’s stupid and why nobody except you would want such a thing, but that’s the reason why it doesn’t work, period. Seriously, if you want to pay women to go on dates with you, just go find a prostitute. It’s okay for you to do that.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

You’re still talking as if getting dates was some sort of right men have when you talk about a government service. You’re talking a form of escort agency or quasi-prostitution. I don’t see any suggestion here that men should be signing up and required to provide dates, oh no.

Dating isn’t a human right, much less something women owe men.

The five-year scenario is pointless, since it pushes the idea that some people’s lack of a relationship could be extended to several billion people. Not going to happen. And the world is hardly safe NOW for many people. Are you suggesting loneliness is going to turn billions of people into rapists? You must have a very low opinion of humans if that’s what you’re suggesting, not to mention getting the whole crime of rape totally wrong – it’s about power and abuse, not loneliness or the desire for love. It also has the nasty connotation of being owed sex, an implicit threat. Guess what – people with that attitude are even less likely to form relationships. Who wants to be with a demanding, entitled, whiny arsehole? (I’m not talking just men or just het relationships, but anyone at all.)

wrath
wrath
9 years ago

CassandraSays, 6 months with no intimacy, sex or affection is when involuntary celibate starts. But most incel men I know go without these things for a much longer period.

As for claims being presented here which state that most men don’t commit suicide or violent acts, what about those who do? You think they would he helped by therapy alone? That therapy would make them satisfied with incel?

None of the males on love-shy site got help from therapy because their pain is situational.

The combination of video games, free on-demand porn, and professional sports all trick the mind of the modern male into believing both that he is winning and that his group identity (tribe or clan) is dominant.

If feminists were smart, they would support porn and increased sex and violence in video games, movies, TV, and sports, as a way to cement their rule and keep men docile and compliant. The fact that feminists oppose all of these illustrates how stupid they are.

katz
9 years ago

So get a prostitute and quit whining.

lauralot
lauralot
9 years ago

Oh for the love of all that is good and decent (which is not you, Mr. “Incel.”) I have never had sex in my life, nor experienced sexual or romantic attraction ever. And not only do I not give a fuck about how horrible that apparently makes my existence, I also don’t go around talking about how the evil feminists/governments/parents should die for not getting me fucked.

Grow up. Go outside. Pull your head out of your ass.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

::sound of world’s smallest violin::

I didn’t get into a relationship till I was in my forties. I neither raped anyone nor went around whining that the world and his brother owed me something. Boo bloody hoo for all the poor menz whose pain is so fucking great the need the gummint to help them out. That’s not looking for love, it’s looking for someone to orgasm into. Go to a sex worker, that’s their job. Go get a life and develop some interests and learn to treat women as people and stop treating us as if it were an either-or of us providing sex for you or not. Treat us like human beings and you never know, you might actually grow as people yourselves, and even become attractive to someone as a side-effect.

Incidentally, the “feminists condemn porn” line is crap and shows how ignorant you are, again. SOME feminists are wary of porn, or some types of it. Some are pro-porn. Some are undecided. Get it? Individual people with individual thoughts on the matter?

Take your entitlement and whining and shove it.

Shaenon
9 years ago

Incidentally, the “feminists condemn porn” line is crap and shows how ignorant you are, again. SOME feminists are wary of porn, or some types of it. Some are pro-porn. Some are undecided. Get it? Individual people with individual thoughts on the matter?

More to the point, feminists don’t base their opinions on how well any given issue aids their evil secret plot to oppress men.

We base our opinions on how well any given issue aids our access to cat videos.

Myoo
Myoo
9 years ago

@Shaenon
Well, banning porn could free up a lot of Internet bandwidth that could be better used by cat videos. Not to mention it would free up a lot of site names with the word “pussy”.

Nathan Hevenstone
9 years ago

Hey Wrath?

I’ve been an incel for 25 years.

Oh.

How old am I?

25.

But I don’t fucking care. And you know what? I’m not blaming women. When you get rejected over and over, you start to realize that there’s a common denominator there. In my case, that common denominator was ME. Realizing that was the second most freeing moment of my life (quite close to the first most freeing moment of my life, realizing that the whole “god/supernatural” thing was bullshit). So now I work to change ME, since I’M the problem.

You should think about that, Wrath. I’m assuming from your insane posts that you’ve been rejected a lot (like I have). Have you considered trying to find the common denominator? I’ll give you a hint: it’s YOU.

Yes, you.

You have a problem, and you need to fix it. You’re the one that needs to change, not them.

I know… I know… shit like this is hard to accept. No one wants to admit that they have a problem. But when you do, you’ll find a whole new world open up to you. I’m HAPPIER for having stumbled upon that realization, and I’m actually having fun changing, and fixing myself and my problems. It’s invigorating and, when others notice, can be a HUGE boost to the ole’ ego (“dude… you’ve lost a TON of weight. You look amazing!”… do you know how much I like to hear that? It motivates me to keep going; but I’d never hear it if I didn’t start making changes).

Of course, I know all this is probably lost on you, Wrath. You’re so wrapped up in your ego, so convinced that your shit don’t stink, that you won’t accept that the problem might actually be you.

So why don’t you just fuck off?

Nathan Hevenstone
9 years ago

So…

Wrath was banned…

Fuck…

I think…

Is that…

That’s the exit over there, then? I think I’ll take it. I just remembered I had a… erm… doctor’s appointment…

Yeah…

That…

*runs out*

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