By David Futrelle
Today, a brief visit to the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, where men who claim they’ve given up women — and don’t even think about them any more — spend all day every day talking about women. This time, they’re talking about female orgasm, which according to them doesn’t exist.
Annoyed by a post in the badly named women-centric TwoXChromosomes subreddit in which a young woman wondered if she might possibly have just had her first orgasm while taking a highly stressful physics test, a MGTOW Redditor called TVTestPattern declares flatly that the female orgasm is a “myth.”
Oh, dude. Dude.
I feel a little bad for him. And a lot bad for any woman who may have suffered the misfortune of having sex with him.
Also, dude, the fake orgasm scene from When Harry Met Sally — which is what his final line links to — isn’t actually proof of anything, except perhaps that screenwriter Nora Ephron might just have endured some really shitty boyfriends and husbands in her day (we already knew she had one extra-shitty ex-husband, Carl Bernstein). But I digress.
The commenters in the MGTOW subreddit thought that Mr. TestPattern here was really onto something with his totally original female orgasm theory.
“I have always said this,” wrote YouLoseAgainDipshits.
As men, we know that orgasms don’t feel thatgood. When’s the last time you screamed and moaned while masturbating?
While women are drama queens, it’s clear they don’t even know what an orgasm is.
A guy called Avyctes managed to have an opinion that was somehow even worse than this.
“A female orgasm is irrelevant,” he wrote.
As long as the Man gets off. She’s nothing more, and a whole lot less, than a walking masturbation sleeve.
So weird that there are so many guys out there not only willing to admit that they’re terrible people, but also to make it absolutely clear that they are utter shit in bed. The internet is an amazing thing.
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Can confirm that detached sex done as a sex worker isn’t as enjoyable, and most of the noises I made were performative. That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t enjoyable at all, or that I wasn’t lucky enough to get a few clients who were into the whole “both people need to enjoy it” sort of thing, but it’s different.
Meanwhile, sex with a skilled lover can be so intense that sometimes I have to ask them to tone it down a little. I also have difficulty not making “real” noises. I might be a little too sensitive in that respect, but based on conversations I’ve had with other women (and a few men) there is indeed a big difference between “my partner is just trying to get off” and “we’re both trying to maximize each other’s enjoyment”.
@ Jenora
Have you ever seen The Wicker Man? (Do not mention the Nicholas Cage remake; it does not exist in my cinematic universe.) Lee sings a rather bawdy folk song in that one.
(Warning – the clip opens with a shot of a dead hare.)
@ Vicky P
I love the Wicker Man! It’s not even a film to me; it’s more akin to a holy text. And Christopher Lee is just sooooo amazing in it. “Call that Prancing!”
Although I am a bit of a heretic in that I do think the “one night” version is better; which definitely puts me at odds with Mr Lee.
@ Alan
I can appreciate both versions (and own both – VHS and DVD). Have you ever read the behind-the-scenes book Morbid Ingenuities? Author is Allan Brown, and he did a heroic job collecting everybody’s stories/recollections of the filming as well as describing the aftermath.
I also own the novelization, which is fun to read but includes various bits that would’ve slowed down the film immensely, such as the scene where Lord Summerisle introduces Sergeant Howie to all the different fruits they cultivate on the island. Even looking at it as pure prose rather than a screenplay, I would’ve recommended a trim or a tightening-up, or cutting it altogether. Ditto with Oak’s speech about what ritual must be followed to succeed him in his (self-appointed) holy task as a guardian of a sacred space.
Though to be honest, one of my favorite Wicker Man fan experiences is watching the footage of Edward Woodward giving a guided tour for the DVD’s nostalgia doco, excitedly talking about what he remembers, how the scenery has changed/not changed, and just generally being enthusiastic about the film.
@ Vicky P
Ooh, I haven’t; but I’ll be hitting the bookstores this week! I have seen/read just about everything else regarding the film though; and I also love that bit.
I’ve always wanted to see a film set in 1974, where someone is eating a Summerisle apple and makes a throwaway comment about how it was a bumper crop that year.
@ Alan
Good luck! I don’t know if the book is still in print. I used to have 2 copies, but I gave the other away to another Wicker Man enthusiast a few years ago.
To the degree that we’re doing TMI … I’m a straight male, and it’s always been clear to me that my partners’ orgasms are a lot more intense and fun than mine are. My orgasms are pleasant (although I prefer the buildup to them), but even from a self-interested view, I’m happiest making my partners’ experience one I can vicariously enjoy.
I don’t (even slightly) have a “death grip”. However, like many men, I’ve been circumcised, which research suggests costs men a lot of sensitivity. (Although nothing like what clitorectomies do women.) I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the orgasm-denigrating men have also been circumcised.
Why they decided to be assholes about it (and terrible in bed) is a separate issue, as always.
@Victorious Parasol:
No, I haven’t seen (any version of) The Wicker Man. Heard of it, sure.
And I can easily imagine Lee singing a bawdy folk song. I mean, sure, he was best known for playing heavies (and he could make it really easy to believe that he was Special Ops during WWII, he definitely had that sort of intensity), but his great-grandmother was a relatively famous opera singer, and Lee himself sang in metal bands.
*checks Wikipedia page* Oh, I hadn’t known he’d sung with some of the Steeleye Span people as well. Well, if you want bawdy folk songs, there’s some right there. Going to have to look up The King of Elfland’s Daughter album.
(And now I’m going to have The Shaking of the Sheets from the Tempted and Tried album going through my head. A friend of mine used to use lines from The Fox as a tagline.)
@ Jenora
The Wicker Man is a heck of a movie (or movies if you want to embrace all the versions), but be warned that learning a little something about the movie is like trying to eat only one cookie or one potato chip. There’s just so much out there about the making of the movie, what happened afterwards, how interest in the movie picked up again around the time Christopher Lee was cast in LotR and Star Wars….
Echoing the love 4 The Wicker Man (Christopher Lee & Edward Woodward version). The movie left a very strong impression on me.
Spoiler Alert:
The scene that probably hit me the hardest was Edward Woodward trapped in the eponymous Man and reciting what were essentially his own Last Rites.
His acting in that scene hit me right between the eyes (I’d already like him as an actor), but that scene…stuck with me for a very long time.
One of the many things I love about the Wicker Man is that technically it’s a musical!
(spoilers for Wicker Man ahoy)
@ ObSidJag
Had you heard that Woodward specifically requested that he NOT see the Wicker Man set until they were filming the procession where Howie is led to be sacrificed?
And agreed – Howie basically shriving himself is a heart-shaking moment. On the mainland, he’s secure in himself, in his position as a policeman, and in his faith as a Christian. On Summerisle, he learns what he is when he’s separated from his support system. (Though Howie would probably inform me that nothing could separate him from his Lord and Saviour.)
@ Alan
“Gently, gently Johnny. Johnny my jingaloo…”
I talked about the Wicker Man novelization earlier, and today I found myself remembering a scene where Howie sees the Summerisle folk cavorting and shagging away. There’s a line of inner dialogue where Howie thinks something to the effect of “Stop! You’re making it look ugly! And I thought it would be beautiful!” Then he goes on to think that when he and his fiancee make love, he will always take care of her and makes sure she enjoys the act with him.
For all of his priggish ways, Howie (novelization Howie, at least) could be pretty sex-positive. The Summerisle inhabitants repelled him because he thought they seemed to indulge in sex as if it were a base, animal desire; whereas he saw it as sacramental (he specifically says he doesn’t believe in sex outside of marriage) and something he was looking forward to experiencing at the proper time. And he was thinking of his future wife’s pleasure, to boot. That mix is what makes Howie a fascinating character.
@Victorious Parasol:
I’ve certainly heard about The Wicker Man, even if I haven’t seen many movies at all lately due to lack of time.
I’m also familiar with enough various bits of mythology to know where some of the concepts came from.
I’ll try looking for it at some point… probably after I’ve finished writing the couple of other stories I’m working on; I don’t need more new ideas jostling in my head before those are done.
@ Jenora
Good luck on your current WIPs! I have one I’m wrestling with myself right now … the protagonist keeps threatening me with her disappointment if I screw things up.
If you’re interested in mythology, you’ll probably enjoy The Wicker Man. There’s a lot of Golden Bough type of details studded throughout the film.
Another great thing about the Wicker Man is, notwithstanding its misclassification as a horror film, it’s actually really heartwarming.
Ultimately, everyone gets what they truly want. The islanders get their crops back, and Howie gets to sit at the right hand of god with the elect.
I love that the islanders actually totally respect his beliefs; and are completely honest when they say it’s the greatest gift in their power to bestow. It’s genuinely their way of saying thank you; and I think Howie understands that at the end.
@ Alan
That’s another thing that’s interesting about the novelization. At the end of the film, Woodward does a great job of conveying that Howie will meet his martyr’s death with all the strength of his faith. In the novelization, Howie not only puts himself in the hands of his God, but decides that since the islanders are calling him a king, and he conveys the authority of a monarch in his role as policeman, he will comport himself with the dignity of a faithful servant of God and of Elizabeth II.
I saw it in college with a friend. He told me later that, at the very end, when the islanders are singing what to him was a completely unfamiliar song (Sumer is i-cumen in), he heard me singing along under my breath.
He thought, in rapid succession,
Wait, how does Robert know that song?
Wait – his family is *from* Scotland.
OMFG, it’s all true.
It was an unexpected jolt of pure terror for him. I’m proud that I was a part of that.
@ Robert
I am officially envious!
“Naturally, it’s much too dangerous jumping through fire with your clothes on!” –Best line ever.
One of my favorite parts is when Howie challenges Summerisle at the end and points out that if this doesn’t work, they’ll have to burn him next year. It’s the only time in the film that Lee really puts on his I-am-an-evil-bastard face, and his “I know it will” really gets across the fact that he’s as much of a religious fanatic as Howie is himself, in a way that even the whole sacrificing-the-cop aspect doesn’t. And while I love Alan’s idea of the bumper crop, I don’t think there’s any evidence that the rite actually worked. The ambiguity over whether it did or not makes it even more chilling, IMO.
Also, while I fully agree that the Nicholas Cage version doesn’t actually exist, there is a darkly hilarious mashup on youtube that’s just “Every time Nicholas Cage punches a woman in The Wicker Man.” It shouldn’t be funny, and yet it is.
@ rabid rabbit
I love that bit too; it’s such great visual acting, the look on his face; and I also love the confirmation that, as he explains, it might have started out as a family scam for expediency, but now he really is a true believer.
It’s worth getting just for the commentary; which is basically a 90 minute apology. It does come across that they did respect the source material, and went in with the best intentions, but events conspired against them. It’s also very funny “There is a scary bit; hang on, hang on….there!”
@ Alan
Another bit from the novelization you may appreciate.
As the Wicker Man is burning, Howie hears the screams of the animals, and he determines to save at least SOME of them. He manages to free some of the birds, and as he dies, he tells himself that he has managed to perform his duty: to save life, even if it isn’t the little girl he thought needed protection.
It’s an effectively written scene, with Howie really having to struggle to get the birds freed, and the reader shares in his triumph as he watches the birds fly away.
@Victoria Parasol:
It’s a good thing I’m fairly spoiler-proof anyway.
I’ve been having some fun going through some of the world-building implications of my current work-in-progress. Fantasy novella, kingdom was established by a goddess thousands of years ago; every time the previous queen dies, a new one is automatically selected from the divine bloodline (through means that no mortal understands), and they undergo a physical transformation which makes it quite obvious that they’ve been chosen.
The thing is… thousands of years ago. People and population dynamics being what they are, well over 95% of the population is now descended from the original goddess (and most of the exceptions are recent immigrants). Which means pretty much anybody might be chosen. It kind of has the advantage that nobody grows up knowing that they’re going to be running things in the future. The queen in the story was actually an innkeeper’s daughter, kept the books for the inn, and is currently expanding a trade empire based around the original kingdom.
Partly I’m just having fun playing with the idea that a ‘sacred bloodline’ doesn’t really mean much after long enough. As the joke goes in genealogy: “Hey! I just found out I’m descended from Charlemagne!” “Yeah, you and pretty much everybody else in Europe.”
Of course, another side effect of the way succession happens in this world is that there tend to be a lot of bets being placed at royal funerals. Which meets with official disapproval, but most of the betting rings are run from inside the palace anyway.
So many great thoughts just come from taking a basic idea and extending it to its obvious corollaries.
@ Jenora
That sounds neat!
My (main) WIP is a lightly steampunk/alternate history where Prince Albert didn’t die of stomach trouble as in our world, which resulted in some interesting advances in science and other areas. But that’s more deep background than anything else. The plot revolves around a teacher and her student, both of whom spent time under the British Raj, but they didn’t meet until they were in England.
@ Vicky P
That is a nice touch. Human sacrifice is an interesting topic; and one we actually covered in Penal Policy. There’s some fascinating societal stuff behind the shift from sacrificing the best of your people in your society; who were often very willing; to using it as a way of getting rid of criminals.
Some proto-celtic cultures used to sacrifice the last person to turn up on the battlefield. I bet that did wonders for punctuality.
@Victorian Parasol:
Last time I wrote Steampunk was many years back, for a small press ‘zine which unfortunately folded on exactly the issue which was supposed to include my story.
I set it up during the construction of the western branch of the Canadian Pacific Railway, where one of the cost saving measures brought in by Michael Haney (who in the real world had a steam-powered sawmill built to pre-cut the lumber needed for bridges) also involved an early steam-powered difference engine used to assist the surveying and explosives calculations.
@Alan:
That reminds me of the anime From the New World, which is set in a post-apocalyptic world in which the apocalypse happened because people started developing psychic powers, while still being, you know, people.
One flashback scene involved somebody who had himself crowned emperor, and who decreed at his coronation that everybody should start applauding… and that the first hundred people to stop applauding would be executed immediately. As in, he made anybody who stopped clapping burst into flame.
After bits like that, it’s pretty obvious why the society of the main storyline is a quietly fascist organization that promptly ‘disappears’ any children who show problematic psychological issues, and then brainwashes the remaining children to forget that they existed.
@ Jenora
Ugh. Yeah, that’s the peril of a small press sale. Been there, done that. It’s why “pay on acceptance” is so much nicer than “pay on publication.”
@Victorian Parasol
Didn’t Failbetter Games do something like that, only with more space bats?
(I’m only mostly joking)
@ Tovius
Heh. Well, it’s an obvious departure point for AH, like the South winning the American Civil War. Harry Turtledove may be the gold standard, but there’s plenty of room for good stories exploring an idea.
@Victorious Parasol:
This was a very early fanzine. Payment would have been in contributor’s copies anyway.
Actually, the collapse was fast enough that some of the people who had been contributors to the previous issue didn’t even get their contributor’s copies. I ended up showing the copy that I’d bought at a convention to a friend with a story in that issue, because said friend hadn’t even received a copy for their contribution.
(This was very early 90s, with Desktop Publishing only recently becoming a thing, and the ‘zine editor worked at a company with access to good printers. End result was that the ‘zine looked professional, wraparound cover on the second issue and everything. Too professional. There were apparently tax issues because somebody with the authority to make such decisions couldn’t believe that this was a personal fan project, and that was a significant factor in everything being shut down and unsold existing copies being confiscated. Or so I was told at one point.)
@alan
Well, sure. The scam worked, after all. Why wouldn’t you start believing in it? (The moment also really works because Lee’s been at his charming, reasonable best throughout the whole rest of the film. Well, except for his casual prejudice about the “Christian copper.”)
Out of curiosity, who’s doing the apologizing in the Cage commentary?
@Jenora Feuer
I love that idea, and I’m going to want to read your WIP once it’s no longer in progress.
@Rabid Rabbit:
Thanks.
I will fully admit that part of the real-world background of this story is essentially taking a couple of personal interests(/kinks) and trying to write a completely coherent, self-consistent, and non-pornographic story involving them. Working out the details of the world background and what side effects they would have is required for the ‘coherent’ and ‘self-consistent’ parts.
(And, honestly, I feel background building has often been one of the weaker aspects in my writing.)
What are they wondering about?
It is known that women can orgasm from physical activities, like sports and certain repeated body movements.
This can be induced and/or supported by sexual thoughts but also can occur through simple mechanical stimulation.
I’ve actually had small orgasms (not very intense full-on climaxes but still orgasms) once from
a) riding a bus that bumped over a street that had seen far better days, which made my panties rub over my clit in a very pleasant way.
b) as a 12-13 year old, while making that swinging leg movements to raise a swing higher, although I admit I also had somewhat erotic thoughts about a certain older girl.
But it was mostly the physical sensation that made it, in that bus I had no sexual thoughts whatsoever and had been in no mood for sex when it started due to the bumpy ride. Just mechanical stimulation of the clit.
Needless to say, I had no motivation to make a show of it. On the contrary, with all those people around I rather had the trouble to maintain composure. The funny thing was there was another young woman who I suspect experienced something similar. She noticed me looking at her, grinned back knowingly and somewhat lewdly and made some subtle but telling pelvis moves. xD
However, it’s just amazing how it never even occurs to these morons that women have different bodies, different nerve pathways especially in this region and entirely different genitalia. So, quite likely, their sexual sensations generally and their orgasms specifically just might be – surpriiiiise: different. Not better, not worse, just other than men’s. And comparing them to his own, considering he simply doesn’t have, never had and never will have the respective organs is at the very least futile and stupid.
I’m very curious about what men experience during sex and already asked dozens of men. My guy was one of the few men who ever gave me usable and comprehensible answers.
(The vast majority literally (!) replied things like “it feels good” or that amounted to this much information. Yes, really. Or they didn’t know how to describe their sensations at all.)
Part of the trouble all those men experienced explaining me is that for them it’s normal, language doesn’t hold adequate expressive possibilities for immediate physical sensations, emotions or mental states and men are usually less experienced and often not so good at describing these at all which doesn’t get easier when it’s something sexual. (Interestingly most of those same men were far more able to describe and quite open about their sexual thoughts and images, many first didn’t even grasp I wasn’t asking for them but for their physical experiences.)
But the biggest obstacle for me to understand is that I don’t have a dick and all that goes with it. I don’t know and I can’t imagine because it’s something entirely outside my bodily experience. Think MRAs will happily accept this acknowledgement – but why don’t they consider it is just the same the other way around?
We can try to tell them but they can’t feel and know it the way other women can. Even if their feelings are different women are more capable to relate to female recounts of sexual experiences, just like men are with men.
So how arrogant and presumptuous can you be to state women don’t even know what orgasms are?! Well, there are billions of women out there who know very well.
Limit such statements to virgins you deflorated and other inexperienced women you had sex with, please. Might even believe it then. Those poor girls…
My explanation for this is: this kind of “men” cannot accept under any circumstances that women orgasm from anything else but the Almighty Dick. Beware without any man anywhere near them! Or even with another woman!
But even in the hetero”normal” intercourse this notion makes it impossible to accept that clitoral stimulation is crucial for most women to come and they mostly won’t orgasm from penetration alone or at least, if they can, for most of this minority it’s still not as satisfying as orgasms from clitoral or combined stimulation.
So as long as they ignore the realities of female anatomy and focus on or even make their sole attempt at penetration they will logically not satisfy their partners.
I’ve met men with more mild manifestations of this in-penis-we-trust-beliefs and it was quite difficult or nearly impossible to convince them their based on faulty conceptions of female sexuality.
Many men who entertain such beliefs are quite obsessed with their dicks (especially the notorious size complex regardless of the actual size and how often they’re told if size matters then it’s certainly not about the length parameter).
It’s actually even worse sometimes when they have big dicks because then they think every women ought to swoon when they only unpack it, let alone puts it in and they’re absolutely not going to get what’s the matter with her that this excellent piece of masculinity doesn’t satisfy her.
Clit? What clit? Isn’t this clit BS for women whose partners have small cocks? How can she need anything else when she gets THIS from him?!
Obviously to such men their dicks are tied to their narcissism even closer than it is the case with the average male.
Needless to say, it’s far easier and more satisfying to dump such jerks right away and find a man willing to please you than to argue, explain how the female body works and why yes indeed, as a woman you know better and get mansplained on that while trying to bring those befuddled airheads down to the grounds of reality.
If they were capable of learning they would seize opportunities to become better lovers when meeting women who know what they like and want (sadly, many still don’t… and since they’re often so insecure they’re more prone to sleep with douchebags like them – which is another reason why they conclude women don’t know orgasms).
Unfortunately their self-absorbed attitude hinders them to learn and after a couple of sexual failures, which they can’t explain to themselves because they don’t occur in their world due to the beliefs mentioned above, they conclude women don’t even know or just fake orgasms anyway and from that take the comfy little bridge to Hotel Who Cares on Egocentric Island.
In their distorted logic it all makes sense: if female orgasms are mostly faked and in the other case insignificant anyway why not consequently argue there is no such thing as a female orgasm at all?
After all, they would’ve seen it by now if there was one, wouldn’t they?
Love how they don’t even notice how they expose themselves as terribly unskilled… fuckers. Don’t deserve to be called lovers.
And this Avyctes is just so gross! Yuck! Luckily for the women in his reach, with this rampant misogyny he’ll probably scare them away soon enough and have to stick to non-walking – that is, actual masturbation sleeves. Likely “stick” means literally. Baaah!