By David Futrelle
There’s a little bit of drama going on in the Am I the Asshole subreddit, where Redditors who suspect that they might just possibly have behaved a teensy bit improperly (but probably not) go to tell their stories and get a ruling on their asshole status from their peers.
Yesterday, a fellow calling himself TheCrocDude reported in with this leading question: “AITA [Am I The Asshole] for wearing “crocs” to work? (Serious, I may have just been denied a promotion)”
It was pretty clear from the outset that he expected Redditors to weigh in on his side.
Huh. That was a pretty quick jump from “I didn’t get the promotion because I dress like a slob” to “maybe I’m being oppressed as a man!”
First, as many people pointed out, Crocs — while tacky — may be perfectly appropriate office wear in a casual office, especially for someone who works out of sight of the public, or for some non-office jobs that require people to be on their feet all day. (In my exceedingly casual home office, where my only work colleagues are cats, I’m barefoot most of the time, and so are they.) But people in management at tech companies are generally expected to not wear giant cartoon rubber shoes.
And, no, CrocDude, the woman who got promoted over you would not have been able to get away with Crocs because she’s a woman. There’s no such thing as a “Croc Pass” that applies only to the ladies.
But the petulance of CrocDude’s post — I’m not going to call him by his real name, as he is an embarrassment to all Davids — and his belief that he was somehow discriminated against in his tech job for being a man suggest that the Crocs are really only the symptom of his unpromotability problem, not the cause.
And his other comments in the thread more than confirm this judgement. For, in the least surprising development since my cats starting to pester me for dinner an hour before it’s usually served, it turns out that CrocDude kind of a creepy misogynistic douchebag
When one Redditor asked him how exactly “wearing goofy footwear relate[s] to gender bias,” CrocDude offered this, er, observation:
Dude you can see she wears thong panties under her dresses, that’s unprofessional
Wait, what? Maybe she’s the one who should be going to HR, not you.
When another Redditor wondered why exactly he was monitoring his co-worker’s ass at work, he responded “Why are they looking at my feet?”
I dunno, dude, maybe because you’re wearing giant neon-colored clown shoes?
And then there was the whole George R. R Martin question. In response to a question from another Redditor that’s since been deleted — presumably for being offensive — Mr. Croc complained that his office rival is
the “quirky hot girl” who claims to love GoT but couldn’t identify GRRM in a police line up.
That’s right. He apparently thinks she shouldn’t get the promotion because he’s convinced himself that she’s a FAKE NERD in addition to being a thong-wearer.
Jeez, dude, you’re making Croc wearers look bad.
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Just a bit of idle speculation here, but clog-style Crocs have all those holes in them, and digital cameras are so small and inexpensive these days. It wouldn’t be difficult to – theoretically – set up a concealed upskirt rig, which might explain the claimed knowledge of undergarment preference.
re: thong-style underwear and professionalism…
I’m hoping that Croc Clown only has knowledge of “panty lines showing under light-weight clothing”… and not direct observation of said undergarments….
still…
I don’t think there is anything wrong with crocs. For some work places they might be appropriate like something in the medical filled. But like Ballet slippers or barefoot is appropriate for my work environment, that doesn’t mean I should wear them if I’m working in an office. Wear your crocs at home, to the beach, when you’re doing the food shopping, whatever. But come on, everyday to a job like that, especially when you can afford some real shoes. that’s just sad.
@Katamounth
With the difference that Wally was based on someone who was deliberately trying to get fired.
I’m actually wearing Crocs right now. My husband got me a pair as house slippers.
When I worked at the hospital, I wore my Birkenstocks (brown sandals, black enclosed) exclusively. Nobody ever commented.
Crocdude doesn’t sound like someone I’d want to get stuck in an elevator with, that’s for sure. Good news is, most of the Redditors responding seemed to agree that he was, in fact, the asshole in the situation.
I kinda take issue w that manager. He’s not exactly being helpful to the woman he promoted by being unprofessional in how he communicates issues. It DOES make it all about how *she* dresses and makes it hostile between them (knowing the employee is immature).
I would quit a job wherein management talked to me that way, I have. Ive also quit when they refused to fire a man who sexually harassed me (btw he got fired for no call no show later and they tried to get me back lol no). Im ok w casual language & shit talk in kitchens and whatnot, but I dont take shit from managers bc it gets worse later.
If he had an issue w crocs he should have said so day one. If he knows the guy is a creep he should have fired him. If he felt he was that unprofessional he shouldnt have offered a promotion.
Women in Japan recently tried to get a law passed that they shouldnt be forced to wear heels. As others have said, dress codes are oppressive. Look at how jerks react to Black people’s hair.
The anti-male bias appears to be that he wasnt automatically ruled superior bc he is a man and that women have to wear different clothes to be considered professional.
Exactly, it’s insane that this guy somehow thinks women have it easier.
Also, crocs are objectively the ugliest footwear ever designed, and I don’t even find them all that comfortable to make up for it. All that plastic directly against feet just get sweaty and gross, plus they easily slip off your feet if you do anything other than slow walking on a plain surface and I genuinely wish Peter “Foppa” Forsberg had never introduced them to my country (yes, it was a hockey player of all people who brought them to Sweden, and they’re still known as “Foppa-slippers” here).
@Scanisaurus:
These are the words of someone who has never encountered Ugg boots.
@moggie
I’ve seen an ugg boot combined with a croc once
@Moggie
Well, at least Ugg boots don’t use neons as their default colors or look like they were actively designed to trigger trypophobia.
@Lainy
Where? Who would want such an abomination?
Saw pictures of them a while back. And probably this guy.
…why are we insulting people’s clothing choices as “objectively ugly” though? This seems petty and anything but feminist to me. Sure, we can agree they don’t meet most dress codes, but calling shoes that some people have even said in this thread they enjoy wearing and that some people find is the only thing comfortable to wear for their physical problems “objectively” ugly is ableist and a really weird direction for this comments section.
@anon
I agree this is a bad manager if we take OP at his word, but I’m going to default to assuming this dude has been talked to before based on the manager’s response of, “give me a break from having to offer any explanations.”
I think the Uggs wedding boots are my personal pick for most horrifying.
For some reason, my phone’s paste function does not work on this site, but look them up. They’re horrendous.
@Scanisaurus
I took issue with this, and sought google’s assistance in finding an uglier shoe. But when I googled “ugliest shoes” I got an ad for black Crocs with a flame pattern.
I’ll keep rockin them though. Nothing competes the ‘dad look’ like pairing Crocs with some cargo shorts.
Honestly I think this guy is kind of right to feel blindsided about specifically the dress code. If you’re the kind of person who has trouble navigating between the formal, explicit requirements and the implicit, social requirements you might not be aware that anything was required (or preferred) beyond the actual stated dress code. Like a secret set of rules that you only became aware of after you’ve already failed.
It seems pretty clear to me that the dress code isn’t why this dude didn’t get promoted though, he seems like an absolute goddamn hassle to deal with.
^ But Moe,
Didn’t you once turn your bar into “M”?
Presumably, you understand dress codes then.
@doethreetwoone
Don’t forget the hans or tube socks to wear with them. Then your peak dad look.
@kupo
I realise this could look like I am trying to shut you down as it is text-only and you cannot hear my tone of voice, but I am genuinely interested in your opinion here, because I have no formal training in feminist theory and do not understand how it applies.
I am one of those people that wear crocs due to physical problems, and they plus one pair of expensive dress shoes purpose-built for people with my foot problem are the only comfortable shoes I have. I used to have a job where I was on my feet over half the time, and needed them. However, the crocs are ugly and not accepted as performing shoes. They just are. Hence why I bought the dress shoes.
Now that I have a sit-down job, I either toddle in on horrible-feeling but pretty shoes and then avoid walking all day, or I wear comfy shoes in early and switch them out for “good shoes” from my bag. This is how footwear works for me.
I feel like not mentioning that crocs are ugly because some people are forced to wear them and/or prefer them is papering over a deeper problem, that shoes (especially for women) are in general not comfortable for people with any kind of foot problem. It was almost 200 dollars to buy a basic pair of dress shoes for performing. I know that shoes like that can be got for ~20 dollars if you have regular feet (although admittedly, I shop discount stores, they might be more at retail prices).
I am happy to say crocs are hideous and we need more (cheaper) choice of shoes for people with foot problems–I don’t find this ableist.
I also am not versed in feminist theory on the point, so I am happy to learn why it is. People with foot problems can be ableist just the same as women can be misogynist.
There are lots of people whose writing I enjoy whom I wouldn’t recognize in a lineup, partly because I’m mildly faceblind, but also because books don’t usually include a picture of the author, and when they do it’s usually small and I don’t spend much time looking at it.
@Big Titty Demon
A) “Ugly” is not an objective fact. It’s your personal aesthetic tastes. Putting down the aesthetic of people’s clothing choice as being objectively bad is anti-feminist just as making an absolute statement like “people are ugly without makeup” or “spaghetti straps are distracting.” I really don’t have the energy to explain this any deeper.
B) Feminism is intersectional. If you don’t include disabled people in your feminism, you’re not a feminist.
Hello lovely people it’s been sooooo long! You all are so brilliant and I love reading the comments!
This creep talking about what a woman co worker wears really strikes a chord in me. For me, because of my job, being dressed in a way that reveals my body IS being dressed professionally. I usually wear a thong bottom or thong leotard or bodysuit nearly every day (with tights tho) because my style is part of my art which is part of my job. If this guy came into my salon I’d be gracious I’d still be gracious and welcoming to him but my boss would make him leave if he was rude (I love her so much). I wish guys were more like her.
Lol I never would wear crocs at my work! I had on my awesome Chinese Laundry platforms today and kept them on even when going for my coffee because I like them.
@Weird . . . Eddie
There is a case and it is closed.
unless you need to wear safety clothing at work I really don’t care about your shoes and no one else should care either. there are so many bigger problems in the world than to get angry because someone wears fucking crocs.
@kupo
Re A) So it would be ok to state “I find crocs ugly” but not “Crocs are objectively ugly”? It is in the statement as a fact, not the judgement?
Re B) This goes without saying, but I did not know the corresponding word for “feminist theory” that applies to disabled people. “Ableist theory” doesn’t quite seem right.
@kupo
I think I get what you’re saying, but at the same time I wouldn’t consider calling crocs ugly ableist, since firstly, I’m talking about inanimate footwear, not judging anyone wearing it, and secondly, the vast majority of people I know wearing them aren’t disabled in any way, and as I mentioned before, they’re not exactly friendly to people with trypophobia.
Maybe it was stupid of me to use the word “objectively ugly” for humourous effect, but if so, have you seen anyone ever who thinks they are beautful?
Lastly, if you think saying crocs are ugly is disparaging to poor and disabled who have no better options, I say we should ask for shoe companies to make comfortable and affordable shoes that aren’t hideous available to more people rather than pretend that no disabled people ever care about aesthetics or would want better-looking shoes if they had the option. I myself had to wear tooth braces for years, but I never thought anyone calling braces ugly was insulting to me as I myself also found it ugly and I simply accepted that there was more to life than being pretty, and I personally would just find it condescending if someone had told me braces were pretty.
@Scanisaurus
This might be slightly off topic from what you said but I had a friend growing up who admired a girl in our group or friends so much he wanted to be just like her. So when she got braces he wanted to get them to. But the problem was he had good enough teeth that he didn’t need them so before going to the annual dentist trip he would try to bend his teeth out of places so he would need to get them. He never succeeded. Sorry just a fun story your braces tale made me think of.
@ lainy and scanisaurus
There was a rather weird thing about fifteen years ago for people to wear braces as a fashion accessory. My goddaughter had to pester her dentist to get some. Of course, where I used to live in Hoxton, this sort of thing wasn’t uncommon. There was a trend for a while of people coming out in hair rollers, and indeed with those bits of silver foil in their hair. For more details of Hoxton life, see Nathan Barley, Charlie Brooker’s original website, or Neil Boorman’s magazine. Warning for language there though.
@Alan
I mean I’ve never had them but it makes since I suppose. I mean people do things for their teeth already in the name of fashion. Like stamps and grills and gold teeth. Hell I’ve hung out with guys that filled their teeth so they were sharp fangs….aw my concert days, How I miss you.
@Lainy, Alan
Huh, I had no idea braces used to be trendy, they certainly wasn’t where I grew up.
But the first time I had braces I also had the bad luck of needing to have small white rubber bands connecting the upper and lower jaws on top of the braces, and a friend of my sister genuinely thought I had threads of chewed up gum between my teeth before I explained it to him, and I can’t blame him because it really did look kind of gross.
@scanisaurus
Did your teeth stay straight at least? I know sometimes they move back.
@Lainy
Not quite, I still need a sort of plastic mold I stick my teeth into while I’m sleeping, and I have a thin wire permanently glued to the backside of the teeth on my lower jaw to keep them in place. Not the most comfortable solution, but it’s better than the crooked teeth I had before.
No kidding, I could touch the gum between my two front teeth with my tongue before I got braces, and I’m infinitely glad my country has free dental care for all minors.
@Lainy
You have no idea. I’m about 10 months away from reconsidering the aesthetics of belt packs (i.e. “fanny packs”).
The “no socks with sandals” prohibition is an injustice for people like me who have hideous feet.
@Moggie and @Lainy
Sandals! Yay! I’m in platform sandals or heeled sandals all the time and break the so-called “rule” of no hosiery with open-toed shoes or sandals, which is super silly because I’m NOT going without my tights and I love the look for my art. No socks though. 🙂
My silly phone autocorrect ate my “e” in my name on my last post but I put it back because it’s mine!
Stating that you find them ugly would be better, but also, it’s a little bit inappropriate in a thread where no one asked your opinion. Tgen it becomes policing people’s clothing choices. And yes, there are people who like how they look. Because people have a wide variety of aesthetic preferences. It’s ableist to police the clothing that people with sensory issues or pain wear by constantly disparaging how they look. And when you feel the need to interject how ugly you think someone’s clothing choices are or act surprised that there could ever possibly be people who like how they look, yes, you’re policing.
Doethreetwoone – Ohhh… Are we going down that road?
At the risk of giving away just what a physical wreck I am, I wish belt packs were a thing again! Purses (handbags, pocketbooks, etc.) just aren’t a thing I can carry because of shoulder and hand issues (thanks, retail!) So I wear the last two pairs of cargo pants I own when going out of the house.
Aaaaand so we come to the inevitable end of that road: Curse you, women’s clothing manufacturers, for making clothes with no/inadequate pockets!!!
@Hambeast
I got a skirt with pockets!! Deep ones!!
@Moggie and @Lainy
Sandals! I’m in platform sandals or heeled sandals all the time and break the so-called “rule” of no hosiery with open-toed shoes or sandals, which is super silly because I’m NOT going without my tights and I need the look for my art.
My silly phone autocorrect ate my “e” in my name before but I put it back because it’s mine!
@Doethreetwoone I ignore the dubious esthetics of ‘fanny packs’ in favour of having never had my wallet lost, forgotten or stolen since I switched from a purse. 🙂
@Hambeast
I saw a comment somewhere several months ago that said something like “As a man with decades of experience with the women on three continents I can tell you what women want. They want equal pay. They want to be treated like human beings. And they want MORE POCKETS.”
@StacySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved:
Welcome back!
@Moe Szyslak:
Yeah, what is it with that anyway? It’s not just dress codes and it’s not just one workplace. A huge number of workplaces, social environments and situations, and other gatherings and places seem to have a veritable minefield of nowhere-specified rules that newcomers are not apprised of, but will be treated harshly for breaking nonetheless. One assumes that these “minefield rules” are normally taught to people in some part of formal or informal schooling that it is incorrectly assumed that everybody gets.
Enforcing these is, obviously, both classist and ableist, since the people most likely to have missed the relevant courses are those who missed out on some or all of normal schooling due to some combination of poverty and disability. Had to drop out and work to support a disabled parent, or just to have enough to eat; could not attend normal schools due to own disability; etc.
The worst hit are undoubtedly non-neurotypical people of limited financial means.
Oh, fanny packs! Anyone British on here? Am I correct that “fanny” is slang? A Brit friend of mine finds the name fanny pack hilarious and wildly inappropriate.
I caved to shoulder problems and now wear a backpack instead of a purse. Plus comfy running shoes and baggy abayas (but with pockets, so yay!) Fashionable I am NOT.
@ bookworm in hijab
Indeed it is, for, erm, ladybits; so over here we call them ‘bumbags’.
@Doethreetwoone
Do it. There becoming a trend now. Beat the system my friend. Go forth and rock the peak dad look. You have all of my support.
@kupo
I feel like on a thread that’s literally about “is a guy an asshole for wearing Crocs”, giving one’s opinion on the guy and Crocs is, if not explicitly asked for by having a comment section on the topic, at the very minimum not anything to be surprised about. Especially since no one came to the conclusion that the guy was an asshole for the Crocs (other reasons yes, but no one said Crocs = asshole), and at least two of those doing the policing of clothing choice are those who wear the policed item, and, in my case, am somewhat required to wear them. I would probably be surprised if someone said “Yes, you are an asshole if you wear Crocs” that wasn’t a troll, but not at people giving opinions on Crocs.
@Scanisaurus
Yes please! Literally only one store 2 hours drive from me sells podiatry shoes that aren’t Crocs. And they are hella expensive.
@Alan
Is it really! I always thought it was slang for the butt! An elementary school teacher of mine used to tell her students “get your fannies over here” all the time… how much more inappropriate than I thought it was. o.O
Fanny Hill is exponentially a more hilarious title too: do you know if it was already slang at that time, or was introduced by that book?
@Scanisaurus
I’m sorry to here that. My brother had horrible teeth as well growing up. Stuck out of his lips and everything. I’m glad that they at least improved things for you.
@ Kupo
100% agree he is probably BS-ing in one way or another.
@Alan,
Yes, that’s what I thought. I guess “midriff-encircling mini-satchels” would be a mouthful…
comrades, its bad form to try to ask for more clarification or to try to debate someone who says they are too tired to explain/debate more.
to Kupo’s point; I have a large chest, and I hate it bc Im trans-masculine. When I was homeless, having left abuse, I had no bras, which was fine in back of house. But then women who werent my manager complained to my friend to tell me to wear one. She told me she disagreed but would help me if I wanted one.
I was pissed. They knew my situation. I was praised as a hard worker. I wore an apron behind a tall counter and made min wage. Bras dont really change much for me anyway. & didnt even have the guts to tell me directly! I basically decided to refuse. I didnt have any repurcussions for it thankfully.
If you dont like my chest, or shoes – dont look. If you are my boss, you need to tell me the actual rules so I can decide if I want to comply or seek other work.
I was also not really down w all the shoe hate. I mean its kinda funny and sure its trivial but it aint great either. I actually think they look cute. Its objectively subjective, lol
First time commenter here.. I read the reddit thread and I agree that the guy is an asshole.
However I became increasingly uncomfortable with the number of times the phrase ‘look professional’ (or a variant thereof) was used by commenters in the thread. It’s a vague, poorly defined term which I’ve heard used to shut down discussion.
After all what do the ‘professionals’ at Croc Co. wear?