Should these books be required reading for MRAs?
Attention tiny ladies! Paul Elam wants you to know that if you attack him, he will totally punch you right back. And not in a satirical way, either. With his actual, non-satirical fists.
A Voice for Men’s maximum leader has long insisted that his notorious “Bash a Violent Bitch Month” post was nothing more than misunderstood “satire.” That is, when he argued that men who are abused by women would be totally justified if they “beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall,” this was somehow a “Juvenalian” satire of some sort. There’s a famous quote from The Princess Bride that might be appropriate here.
Well, now Mr. Elam has announced to the world that every month is a potential “Bash a Violent Bitch Month” for him. Even if the “Violent Bitch” in question is less than half his size. In a post that he insists is super serious, he writes:
I want to offer a few words on this subject, and this time not in satire. I want to convey as honestly as possible, how I feel on the subject of violence between the sexes, from one man’s point of view.
I am 6’8” tall and 285 pounds. If a woman five feet tall and 110 pounds soaking wet hits me, I am going to hit her back.
Now, Elam does stop short of saying he would “beat the living shit” out of this hypothetical tiny woman, but, you know, in the heat of battle with someone less than half his size, he suggests that he might not be able to control his non-satirical fists:
I would do my best to return the violence proportionally, to just use enough force to stop the attack, but I can make no guarantees. Depending on the suddenness of the attack, the level of fear or threat I might feel, the impulse to self-defend in measured amounts is difficult, if not impossible to predict with any accuracy.
So, if there are any tiny ladies out there who might be considering jumping in a pool and then punching Paul Elam, I would suggest you not do that. Of course, I would suggest you not do that even if he weren’t going to hit back, because hitting people is generally a very bad thing.
Don’t worry, dudes – tiny or otherwise – Elam would totally punch you too!
It is the same reaction I would have to a man. No more and no less. The only way to prevent this and the consequences that may result is for people to keep their hands off me.
Presumably this would also apply to bears, giant squids, killer robots and anyone or anything else that tried to put its hands or paws or tentacles on him.
Now, if someone less than half my size were to attack me, and the situation weren’t life-threatening, I might, you know, back off and call the police instead. But apparently, this isn’t an option for men, because we’re all slaves, or something:
Most people who frequent this site know that men who call for help from police when being assaulted by female intimate partners are likely to be arrested for their troubles. … [T]here are prosecutors that will happily give the victim a criminal record and make them pay dearly for having been attacked.
This idea is completely insane on its face. Not only that, it is the closest thing we have today to the mentality of slave owners who could flog their slaves because they were property.
Never mind that women, who make up the vast majority of the victims of severe domestic violence, make up 20% of those arrested for DV. Never mind that even where there are mandatory arrest laws in effect, police still need probable or reasonable cause to show that domestic violence occurred – like physical evidence of injuries – before arresting a suspect. Never mind that even in states with “dual arrrest” policies, only about half of all domestic violence calls result in any arrests.
And never mind that if you use disproportionate force against someone less than half your size – as Elam suggests he very well might do – you deserve to go to jail, and for more than a night. “Beating the living shit” out of someone much smaller than you isn’t actually self-defense at all. It’s beating the living shit out of someone much smaller than you.
Now, Elam isn’t the only Men’s Rights Activist who seems to spend a lot of time imagining scenarios in which it would be ok for them to hit women. It’s a subject that comes up on the Men’s Rights subreddit all the time; the misogynistic douchebags who populate Reddit’s Videos subreddit are if anything even worse. And don’t ever do a Google image search for “equal rights equal lefts” unless you want to be really depressed.
The Men’s Rights movement: bravely fighting for the right of men to punch women half their size.
![Roosh V has a little trouble with the concept of “no.” [TW: Rape Apologia]](https://i2.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/no-means-no.jpg?resize=50%2C50)
Oops, I meant special garbage bins.
@hellkell Yeah, I wouldn’t want to interfere with all the splaining that I’m a terrible person that beats my children and wants addicts to die of AIDS because I think that cash benefits, a program that most addicts don’t even qualify for anyway, can exerberate their addiction. Obviously that’s the same exact thing as oppossing needle exchanges. Why would I get offended?
Also, I’m saddened to learn that I hate the poor, being poor myself. I tend to think that if something is either an unconstitutional invasion of privacy for everyone or no-one. And at least some jobs test for alcohol.
I like boundaries; I learned them from dealing with an addict in counseling. What I learned is that an addict is gonna do whatever he wants in his box and I shouldn’t concern myself with that, but that I need to have boundaries with the addict and what he gets to do in my box with my time/money/energy as well. And that I should consider all cash given to the addict as directly buying drugs for them. Not because the addict is “bad” but because it’s part of the disease.
But I like boundaries.
Also, I hate my old phone and it’s smashed out screen that doesn’t let me type properly.ffs
On a less whiney note, 50% of Americans are on the financial edge and 3 out of 4 whites will experience financial hardship by the time they retire. Yay income inequality and bullshit healthcare system.
The middle class is dead.
Again: are you under the impression that drug dealers accept EBT?
You’d think the multiple addicts disagreeing with you might give you cause to pause and reconsider, but I guess doubling down works, too.
Yeah, it’s pretty sad when that shit starts affecting white people :-/
Did you just get around to watching the 2008 presidential debates, or something? This isn’t news to anyone here, even the non-Americans.
Whatever, beegee. As long as you shut up.
Seconded.
I’m reminded of LBT’s description of dystopic fiction: “What if everyone was poor? Like, not just the poor people?”
@emily No I don’t think that drug dealers take EBT cards, but people can withdraw the cash from an ATM using their EBT card. Dealers obviously take cash. At least if they restricted the EBT cards to point-of-sale only it makes it more difficult for shannagians. But there’s no good answer. 🙁
Do you have any recommendations for cutting down on fraud (which hurts everybody, the people in welfare the most) while protecting addicts Emily?
And am I out of line to wish you a congrats and a hug for your recovery? 🙂
Is it less whiny because it’s more racist? What the fuck.
Fraud is not the issue, Walter.
So you…are in favor of needle exchanges? I literally can’t tell your actual opinion through the sarcasm.
Have you even been reading the comments, beegee? Lacking basic necessities makes it harder to get sober. So my suggestion for protecting addicts is to treat them like any other person on welfare: give them some money for expenses, then butt the hell out because they’re grown-ass adults and they’re entitled to privacy in their financial affairs just like the rest of us. Oh, and better funding for mental health and recovery programs (and NOT 12-step ones).
Actually, my suggestion for protecting addicts is “a living wage and universal health care”, but I’ll be lucky to ever see that, so…
LBT:
So true. I kept away from the Discworld series for years because I hated Josh Kirby’s covers, and still do. Only got into them when a friend more or less dumped Lords and Ladies in my lap.
beegee, knock it off. Stop digging. You’re already getting complaints, don’t push it to getting modded.
@hellkell, how is that racist? Whites are priviliged, it’s pretty sad when the majority experience poverty.
@katz, as I stated, I only have problems with one program that literally give addicts literal cash that they can literally buy drugs with. Unless needle exchanges give addicts literal cash, I think they’re great! SNAP, housing vouchers, fuel assistance, etc. are all great! Maybe if you weren’t so focused on painting me as a strawmonster, you would notice that. 🙂
@emily I can respect your opinion that addicts are adults. I agree, they deserve the same privacy as me! (Keeping in mind that I have to get non-suspicion drug tested to find a job and get the money to survive. :)) As I said, I like boundaries. Once the addicts have the money, they SHOULDN’T be babysat. But at the same time, the welfare system is frayed and swamped, and other people need that money. Rather than babysitting the addict and worrying about fraud, I think it’s fair to refuse to take part in that situation to begin with. And I don’t think that makes me a monster, or a “fauxgressive” as the original coplaint in the original thread said. Boundaries!
Regardless, I certainly don’t wish ill on anyone. Good night everyone!
Do you even read what you type?
@beegee Re: self defense. My mum worked with special needs kids, so kids with physical and/or mental and/or emotional disabilities. One of the first things she had to learn was restraint techniques, because some of the kids could be violent – and she had to know how to restrain them without a) hurting the kid, at all, and b) getting hurt herself. Because if a kid attacks you, yes they can hurt you – that doesn’t mean you get to hurt them, even in self-defense.
I know you’re not advocating hurting kids; you seem to be stuck in this loop of defending the physical capabilities of smaller people and you’re coming across… not so good.
And yeah the whole dealing with addicts thing – been there and know all about setting boundaries. Thing is, YOU not giving them money is one thing (that could be a healthy boundary). Deciding they shouldn’t get money from social services so they can have a place to live and basic necessities (because they might buy drugs with it!) is a whole other fucking thing. The addicts my BIL treats, who all come from money (it’s a private rehab, and it’s not cheap) and who are almost all employed – perhaps we shouldn’t let them have jobs, since all that money they earn goes right up their nose/in their arm and they’re taking a job from a decent, hardworking non-addict? Yeah? No? Or are the moneyed addicts ok, because they’re taxpayers?
Also – boundaries are for the person setting them. They aren’t a punishment or a lesson for the addict. You don’t set boundaries as a ‘so there’, you set them for your own well-being.
@Fibinachi :This conversation is a little confusing, I normally try to avoid doing this, because it clutters up the thread, but… what the hell is going on?
The troll’s getting thicker, and LBT’s getting laaaaarger. You picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
beegee, You really need to stop. Seriously. Stop. First rule of holes, and all.
Beegee, I have no idea why you have this odd obsession with the idea that encouraging men in general not to hit women (which, fyi, is what David was doing, and what most other people here are doing) is patronizing, but it’s really weird and not at all relevant to the general conversation, so maybe it’s time to let it go?
Also, on the boundaries thing, you can set boundaries for yourself, the people you have relationships with, and your kids. Random addicts who you don’t have a personal relationship with don’t fall into any of these categories, nor is the government their parent.
If you’re interested in self-defence, the first and most important skill you should learn is avoiding conflict. After all, that’s what self-defence is FOR, minimizing the risk of getting hurt. The safest way to not get hurt in a fight is to not get in a fight!
Unless you’re the kind of person who goes around looking for trouble to get into, in which case it’s other people who need to get self-defence classes to get away from you.
Surely, you can’t be serious.
Beegee, knock it off.
“Whites are priviliged, it’s pretty sad when the majority experience poverty.”
It’s pretty sad when ANYONE experiences poverty. The sentence you posted above suggests it’s normal when minorities experience poverty. What the fuck?
@Shiraz:
Yeah, the line “Whites are priviliged, it’s pretty sad when the majority experience poverty.” is all kinds of skeevy. To paraphrase some commenter(s? I can’t really remember) on this very site regarding the premise of many fictional dystopian settings: It’s pretty much the way things are now, but in this world, privileged groups are affected as well! The horror!
If that was an attempt to say “Our economy has tanked so badly that even the privileged groups have been hit” it was a total communication failure. But that’s giving it the best, most benefit-of-the-doubt, interpretation.
I’m guessing Beegee’s point was that when even the most privileged group in the country is struggling, things must really be screwed up. However, that point really needed to be clarified since she’s already on everyone’s last nerve. I’m also not sure what the point of bringing up race was in the first place. It was weird to even mention it.
Ninja’d by Kittehs because I typed out the comment and forgot to hit post for about 20 minutes!
Surely, you can’t be serious.
I am serious.
NOT Phoenician EQUALS
Bugger – the img tag didn’t work.
Wow, I wasn’t expecting the bonus racist bollocks. Please, beegee, for the love of god/Ceiling Cat/whatever, stop digging.
WWTH, lol, don’t think that counts as a ninja then! 😀
Yeah, no. I’m still done.
Have a fox:
http://youtu.be/lO_KOB-gUps
Just realized Beegee needs a stern talk from Mufasa.
It’s really telling that guys like this have the resources to sit around and concoct elaborate scenarios wherein they are assaulted by tiny but very evil ladies and are left with no choice — NO CHOICE! — but to indulge in a violent response. On the flipside, most of the women I’ve ever heard/read discussing the circumstances in which they might use physical force are talking in terms of:
a) How to get away from a larger and more muscular attacker alive, rather than drooling over the lavish pasting they plan to administer, and
b) Stuff that has actually happened to them personally, or to a close friend, or that they have witnessed. Real life, in other words, not cloud-cuckoo-land.
Because someone had to and I can’t help myself:
I’m completely serious and stop calling me Shirley!
Oh my god, is this train still GOING? Well, far be it from me to stop it!
RE: katz
I’m reminded of LBT’s description of dystopic fiction: “What if everyone was poor? Like, not just the poor people?”
EVEN THE MOVIE STARS WOULD BE POOR GUYS. Think how awful that would be!
RE: emilygoddess
Oh, and better funding for mental health and recovery programs (and NOT 12-step ones).
I am HUGELY relieved to hear it’s not just me creeped out by those. (I was advised to go to an Overeaters Anon program once. I did not go back.)
Also, why am I getting larger?
Elam’s article was a response to this article: http://jezebel.com/294383/have… So were is Futrelle’s article about that?
Oh hey, check out the necromancer. Aren’t you adorable?
“Should these books be required reading for MRAs?” Na, they would be much more useful in a feminist “safe space”.
Geez the man needs a lesson in humanity female or male!!! kindness goes a long way